Not to accept that my DD is 'really a boy'?

[Scootering]

This is actually about my DSD, who is nearly 18.

Over the last few months she has told us she is 'trans' and wants us to call her 'David' (not this name exactly...).

Her father and I (and her mother) think this is crazy. She has always been perfectly happy as a girl, long hair and dresses, not remotely tomboyish. This has all happened since she has met a group of very 'out' gay men and I think she really wants to be like them. Her idea of 'being a boy' is to be (frankly) a raving queen (very camp) with flowery shirts and pink hair.

We have NOT started to refer to her as 'our son' or called her 'him' or 'David'. She says we are ruining her life and will never accept her.

We have said we will not do these things until she has been through proper counselling to discuss this. We paid for her to start this but she gave it up after the first session because she 'knows who she is' and 'doesn't need to discuss it'.

So we are now at a impasse. She says we are ruining her life. We are really not remotely convinced we should be acting like she's a boy.

Are we being unreasonable? Are we torturing her? I'd really be grateful for advice because we are finding it all really embarassing and difficult (particularly with elderly parents).

MrsDevere, I said in my very first post that they should call the older child David!

You brought bereavement into the conversation.

I am suggesting that the feelings of all family members are considered.

People who divorce take into account the feelings of their children and support them.

Women who are pregnant take into account the feelings of their children and support them.

We help children in family situations all the time, as Red has outlined in her excellent posts.

I don't have a trans family member, but I have kids who have struggled and needed counselling over issues that other people have found 'easy,' despite coping perfectly well with bereavement.

I think the OP is right to think about everyone in the family when there is a change in the family.

Your welcome sanity sorry i misunderstood you and hope i wasnt condescending

This is not the same as somebody wanting to be treated by family members in a specific gendered way.

I wasn't saying it was a nice way to behave -- I was objecting to what I think was being implied, which was that 'validation' of a 'gay identity' was not required by family (since your partner did that), but that 'validation' of 'gender identity' was (hence it would be doubleplusungood if the family refused to do it, and make the younger kids do it too!).

I don't identify as a lesbian, I just am one, which doesn't require validation by anyone (although obviously being a lesbian totally on your own isn't quite as much fun -- no disrespect to any celibate lesbians out there!).

What if you are in a family which doesn't believe in treating anyone in a specific gendered way? Indeed, a family which did treat members in a specific gendered way might be a problem in and of itself!

some dangerously ignorant views Bingo! Not all of us are ignorant, and there are a range of professional and therapeutic and political views on this issues, and a range of experiences from the friends and relatives of trans people (and people who formerly identified as trans). There is more out there! Denying that would be ignorant...............

Lots of children don't adapt. Well yes, lots of children don't adapt to divorce but we have got past the concept of staying together 'for the children' and not letting children go to funerals and not telling children that bad things happen.

To play devil's advocate. Divorce is permanent.

This might just be a phase she's going through. Not every teen that says something is genuinely baring their vulnerable soul asking for acceptance, some are just doing it for the attention because they relish in the reaction their parents give. I was convinced that my goth phase was not a phase, it was my niche counter culture that I would be forever. I also liked that it drove my parents nuts, I would have told them I was a lesbian to rile them if I didn't have a boyfriend at the time.

If it's just a teen being a typical teen, then there's not really a point in making a huge family upheaval and lifestyle change until OP knows that it's serious.

When she starts taking it seriously with counseling, the OP can too. But right now, she's not going to counseling to help her transition. She's just having a fun time exploring her identity and trying to fit in with her group of friends.

This kind of narrative of the trans child becoming the centre of attention in a family seems to play out over and over again.

Everyone's feelings and experiences should be treated as important in a family.

This is it.

The problem is that, it is something of the nature of being trans, to be so focused on themselves that it becomes very easy not to think about the impact of that on others and to have something of a victim mentality or to fall into a stream of negative thinking that everyone is out to get them. Reading too much into comments or being over sensitive are part of the course.

No one is saying that a trans person should stop being trans. However they should be aware that it also impacts on others, and its not just them who has to cope with it. They should be aware of negative patterns of thinking and behaving, as they do go hand in hand with things deteriorating into something more and developing into mental health issues. Knowing the signs and establishing a support network in advance in preparation of potential problems is life saving and can help families too. I do feel that unacceptable behaviour is sometimes tolerated when it shouldn't be because of fear of upsetting the trans person and families put up with more before turning for help because of certain pressures and a resistance to seeking outside support.

Its very difficult for a sibling to say, 'stop taking it out on me', if their trans sibling is acting out their anger, hurt and pain as they are trained not to challenge it because they can't criticise trans sibling as they have 'such a difficult life'. Speaking up, can almost regarded as an affront or being unsupportive by parents, other family members or even friends. Normal sibling rivalries such as jealousy can easily be magnified in such situations.

I don't buy into the idea that if a parent says its not a big deal, then their children necessarily share that opinion - they may well feel unable to articulate how they really feel, because the parent's perception dominates the family dynamic. The parents have a different role and position so can not speak for how children feel about their siblings. How many siblings view their sibling as being 'the golden child' yet their parents would insist on the fact that they treat them all the same? Its a similar dynamic, driven from the position where you view the situation.

Parents can only speak as parents and siblings can only speak as siblings as their experiences are different and shaped by their status within the family and their life experience outside the family (remembering that parents have a life experience prior to having child whereas children only know their family unit). The experience of my parents has been very different to my experience as a result of this difference of view point. I do find it very difficult to truly talk about the subject with my parents, as I know that if I am honest I will very much upset my parents, so I tend to bottle it up and don't discuss certain things about my sibling with them as a result.

Its an enormous strain in all directions, and I do believe that individual family members, depending on their relationship to the trans person, need support too and that trans people need to know that they have to support their various family members too rather than expecting their family to do all the supporting.

'I was objecting to what I think was being implied, which was that 'validation' of a 'gay identity' was not required by family (since your partner did that), but that 'validation' of 'gender identity' was '

I didn't say that at all. That isn't implied in what I said. It is conjecture on your part.

I would just go along with it and get on with your lives. Explain to the younger children x wants to be called y for now and wants to be referred to as him. Children are very adaptable and won't bat an eyelid. They certainly won't be need smelling salts just because their sister wants to be referred as to as a boy. You don't need to give in depth talks on it and just answer their questions simply.

.....x feels as though she is a boy so we wil all treat her as though she is... And so on.

He/she won't get surgery or gender reassignment without heavy duty counselling being involved, and if it turns out she is serious then so be it.

Stop trying to control what she does and accept she is an adult. Respect her wishes. The more you fight her the more determined she will become.

She is really at the cutting edge of the latest teen thing, isn't she?

Back in my day it was piercings and dyed hair and mohawks.

You are under no obligation to take this seriously, and I agree with RedToothBrush, she needs to be made aware that everyone else in the family has rights to their feelings and to express them.

She couldn't possibly 'feel like a man' (or a boy). She can't possibly know how it feels to be any other person, even her own sister, or her mother, let alone her father or brother. Nobody can know how it feels to be someone else. Everyone else is an individual with their own unique experience of life.

This is why gender theory is extremely important to talk about, and perhaps even to challenge her with.

This isn't about you, and it's not his job to make your life easier by continuing to live as a woman if that isn't how he feels.

"He" will continue to live as a woman, because "he" is a woman. "He" will continue to have menstruations, and will continue to suffer from all the discriminations against women, and then some.

"He" can still get pregnant, and might need an abortion. Trying to identify out of femaleness will not mean that "he" will no longer be harmed by misogynist laws.

If "he" decides to have "his" reproductive organs removed to change that, "he" will have to take replacement hormones and might suffer from early menopause. As happens to women who lose those organs without feeling "like men".

Calling a girl David might mean better opportunities at male-dominated jobs for her, as the employers will not immediately know she is female, but other than that, she will still very much live as a woman. Maybe an infertile woman with a lot of testosterone in her system, but still a woman.

There's so much trans erasure going on here. It's disgusting.

Trans erasure? No, simple facing up to biological realities, yes.

*VestalVirgin that is the biggest load of trans-phobic bollocks ( pun intended) I have had the dubious pleasure of reading on here & believe me I have read loads on MN

Please can you get over your personal aversion to trans people & bugger off if you can't be civil & helpful to the poor OP who is obviously having a very hard time.

Trans erasure?

That makes me want to dance

Seriously, what is this demented fashion for making up a neverending stream of stupid-arsed 'technical' terms for everything and its gender fluid life partner?

I'm going to have and do something rash like join the Plain English Campaign (are they the home counties ranty pressure group?) if this carries on.

There's so much trans erasure going on here. It's disgusting.

Completely agree. I don't even know where to start. I may highlight this thread to a friend of mine who only "came out" as transgender at 28, he's now 32. I asked him about it just now and he's told me that he had three friends come out at 25, 32 and 34. Coming out late doesn't disqualify someone as being trans gender.

I think its worth pointing out that she has had a long period of time to come to terms with who she feels she is and how she identifies herself.

For other people they need time to adjust to her way of thinking. You can't just click your fingers and change how you view someone and address them. Even the most liberal minded and accepting. We do have socially constructed preconceptions we have to lose unfortunately. We do have hopes and dreams for our children. We do have fears and concerns that we don't want to accept as a reality. Because we are human.

With the best will in the world, you need time to adjust, and she has to suck it up and accept that it takes time to do that, and that different people need different time scales to do that.

You can't just operate to her time table. Her expecting you to, is indicative of immaturity and a lack of awareness of issues.

Just as you are unaware of issues too.

If she is serious, she needs to give you plenty of free passes to putting your foot in it, because you will. Lots.

Personally at this point, I think you questioning whether this is a phase or a long term thing is a reasonable and indeed wise thing to do, even if she doesn't see it that way.

Your job, as a parent, is to be her guide and to try and advise her as best you can. Sometimes that might mean that she doesn't like what you have to say. It doesn't mean you are rejecting her or not accepting her. Merely trying to make sure in your own head that she is doing this for all the right reasons and you've done the best by her. You have to be tactful in the way you do this, but there the principle of you needing reassurance too is valid and important.

Being supportive is not just about nodding your head and saying 'I'm fine with that', especially if deep down you aren't. Being supportive is, saying 'I'm struggling with this. I love you. I need to know you are doing the right thing too, even if you are sure of it. I might need to be told this a lot but this is because I love you. I will get there in the end and I will listen to you. This is going to be hard for both of us, but we do this journey together'.

One of the main differences between being gay and being transgender is that nothing really changes with being gay, but with the other, you are talking about hormones and surgery which lead to permanent physical and visible changes. The ability to 'change your mind' is the key difference. A significant number of trans people do have regrets sadly as expectations and reality don't match and this is an important contributing factor to suicides.

I'm sorry if none of this is pc and offends. Its tough shit. I do think it is a process that has to be dealt with and there is more than one side to that process and is about different groups of individuals.

I think its worse not to acknowledge that at some point the chances are that everyone on all sides is going to upset someone else either deliberate out of fear (though still through love) or out of ignorance or pure mistake. What counts is stressing the point that acting out of love can take many forms and that's what really counts and to accommodate for that and keep remembering that at all times.

Trans erasure. For when the real Andy Bell isn't quite LGBT enough.

Whatever we all think can we please get back to the OP's dilemma?

Scootering I hope all this isn't making things worse

Saucy

redtoothbrush well said.

We have said we will not do these things until she has been through proper counselling to discuss this

Clearly against the majority but perfectly reasonable IMO. If this has come suddenly and out of the blue and has all the hallmarks of a teenager acting out then yanbu.

General question for those who think the op is bu-
Taking the gender/trans issue out of it.

If your 17 year old son Simon suddenly demanded that you call him Michael - out of the blue, with no prior indication at all that he was or had ever been unhappy with the name Simon - WWYD?

Instantly agree and start using a different name with no issues? A 2 minute chat, then you accept his new name with no problems? I wouldn't. I suspect the majority of people would have something to say or be at least a little incredulous that something that had never before been indicated, raised, hinted at or suspected was instantly such a big deal.

I would continue to call him Simon until he had thought about the matter long and hard and taken positive steps to actually change his name. Once he began the legal process to change his name I would be more convinced he was certain and actually take him seriously. If I provided all the legal documentation and forms to change his name and he filled in half of them and then decided to not complete them then i'd surmise that the issue wasn't actually that important to him to begin with and refuse to engage in the game.

If your 17 year old son Simon suddenly demanded that you call him Michael - out of the blue, with no prior indication at all that he was or had ever been unhappy with the name Simon - WWYD?

As I am personally acquainted with two adults who are privately called a different name to their official one, because they dislike their original name, I can tell you what I'd do: Ask what is wrong with Simon (because as a parent, I would want to know where I went wrong in my naming decision) and call him Michael.

It's not the same thing.

Being called a different name is reversible. Having major surgery to alter your body is not. But yes, I wouldn't give in to a name change that was just a whim.

I would also think that counselling would be the minimum that I would ask for in order to take a non-reversible decision seriously.

Transgender often means retaining the physical attributes you were born with and just dressing or comporting yourself as if you were a member of the target gender. This can involve using changing rooms designated for 'women' even though you have a fully functioning penis and testes. Or joining a women's basketball team in university even though you are a male bodied individual.

The reason the concept of transgender gets the goat of many feminists is that it implies that gender is real and must be acknowledged. Obviously this is something feminism has been fighting since the start of feminism, and rightly so, sonce gender is something that has been used as a means of keeping women in their place as second class citizens.

Those complaining about 'trans erasure' might pause for a second or two and ask themselves how it might feel to be legally classed as 'chattel' or to have one's spouse entitled to rape one, once married, which was the case until the early 1990s. Or how it might feel to have one's clitoris cut out with a piece of broken glass in order to make sure you never experienced any sexual pleasure and therefore would never be tempted to leave your husband once married at age nine, for another man.

Or how it might feel to have one's clitoris cut out with a piece of broken glass in order to make sure you never experienced any sexual pleasure and therefore would never be tempted to leave your husband once married at age nine, for another man.

Considering that transactivists have complained about the word choice "female genital mutilation", I fear your words will not have the desired effect.