To think first come first served is bullshit

[Pantone363]

and is actually just "which parents can come up with the spare cash the quickest?"

Music lessons at school, £70, first come first served.

AIBU?

We have pulled names from a hat a few times but have done it fairly.

With younger children particularly, it is often quite hard to tell whether or not there is a disability causing the behaviour.

I teach in a disadvantaged school. Participation in trips is based on behaviour. We have had children who we simply can not trust outside of the school, no SEN before someone says it.
The children are all made well aware of this in the school, it's not a shock to them if we don't bring people. If you are trying to behave, we'll bring you. If not, then not - trips are a privilege, not a right.

I also taught in a school for children with behavioural difficulties who had the same approach. It actually was much better for the kids as they had clear criteria and a proper sense of achievement if they did go.

That is only fair if it is known that a child is able to make a choice about their behaviour. With younger children in a mainstream school where there may well be undiagnosed sn, all reasonable adjustments should be considered before a child is stopped from going on a trip or doing an activity.

In my schools case the children who were sanctioned were in older classes.
We would also have a lot of assessment done on our kids. Sadly it's behaviour, not sen.

I've been a secondary school teacher for 15 years in Central London, at 3 different schools, and I don't think we've ever asked for full payment to book a place. Sometimes not even a deposit is needed if total cost is small.
We always include a paragraph in the letter about financial assistance available, and flexible payment schedule if time is available before total payment is due.

I am a teacher. I have worked in a number of schools where the magic hat was not random selection e.g. names stuck to the bottom with blue tack, different size bits of paper, different coloured bits of paper, paper with grooves in and the classic, not putting some children's names in at all.

I have objected every time. Luckily, I am now in a position of authority and unlike in my early days of teaching people do listen when I start raving about equal opportunities!

I used to work for an after school club provider. We wrote "first come first served" on all of our reply slips.

The number of calls I received from parents saying "we returned our slips the day after you sent them out why hasn't xxxx got a place?" Was crazy. But I never disagreed with the schools, I just referred parents back.
When we started online booking a large number of schools refused to offer it to their parents as they wouldn't have control over participants. They have reasons and although it may not be obviously fair, to the excluded children, the other children in the group will have an enormously better time as a result of the school's "interference"

If your child is constantly "excluded" then the school will surely be in communication with you. There are always solutions too. I have had parents remaining after school at the activity I was running to supervise their child because it's the only way for them to behave. The school can't afford another 1:1 outside of normal school hours.

How is names out of a hat any fairer? I think I'd prefer first come, first served.

No surprise to me, the seedy going on behind most choices of who gets chosen.
Surprised that other posters are surprised. Don't you know all this goes on? Really?

I went to a school where favouritism was rife. It was amazing how the names out of the hat method managed to ensure that kids who had parents working at the school, on the PTA, in good jobs and donating lots of money etc were always chosen. Meanwhile those who were less glamourous choices got left out. My mum did a stint there before I was born and she was told by the head not to give a bad report to X even though he was badly behaved because his dad was "one of our best givers", he was a local businessman and very well off.

this thread is one of the most sad, disappointing and disturbing ive read.
i dont have any problem with exclusion for safety grounds or behaviour, as long as the kids are aware of what they are working towards and why they are excluded.
my issue, obviously is that teachers, in a position of trust are abusing it, partly to benefit themselves.
what else are they doing in this manner, choosing play parts?
but anyway surely the issue is that pupils can get away with such bad behaviour that this would be necessary. .. explusion?
but to get better behaviour they need to be aware of the consequences of bad behaviour.
it explains why they run trips that arent for the whole class.
if they cant cope with the kids outside school, its unlikely they are fully coping in school. (or they wouldnt have behaved bad enough to be excluded from the trip)
it comes under deception and fraud

Have to say, as the child who was forever excluded from trips and was forever the naughty kid. The more I was excluded the more I played up. I used to get so angry that I'd been labelled the brat and that no amount of effort on my part would get noticed I'd explode with rage when I missed out on anything.

Take heed teachers. Many of your pupils may be the same.

Lunchpack that was clearly upsetting for you, but can you see it's not fair on the other children, either, when one child's behaviour determines how a whole class trip goes? Teachers have to balance the rights and needs of 30 kids, not just one.

DD and DS had no trips in year 5 due to the behaviour if a few, teachers just said they werent taking them.
Is that fairer?

Some of our after school clubs (voluntary activities) have had an upper limit due to lack of equipment, space or adult supervision and these have always been on a first come first served basis. If they are interested enough they will get the form handed in next morning!
We never have cause to use a "hat" though in a previous very big school I encountered a bit of rigging. This was for an out of hours trip where demand far exceeded the number of spaces available. Most of the names went in but a couple of troublesome characters were left out. The teachers running the trip argued that they were giving their own time so why make it more difficult for themselves?
With regard to the OP's music tuition, it could well be the authority asking for the money up front, not the school.

I don't understand why musical instrument lessons would have limited lessons? Can't the teacher just be offered more hours? And if that teacher doesn't have the time, it would be easy enough to have two teachers. The school I work in has 3 piano teacher, 2 guitar teachers, 2 singing teachers and just one of everything else because the demand for the first three instruments was much higher.

Why put a cap on it?

Also - how on earth are they getting them for £70? How many lessons is that. Ours are over £200 a term! Are they shared lessons?

If they really have to limit it then I think hat is fairer than first come frist served so YANBU

Shared lessons in my school, hence the need to regulate numbers. It is run by the LA and they need enough pupils to make it worthwhile a teacher travelling to the school but not too many to teach at once.

Surely a fairer system is the spreadsheet to keep track of which kids went on which activities and those that haven't should go on the next and so on....
Surely if teachers continua to leave the naughty ones out the parents will start to notice and might kick off!?

Many trips are curriculum-related. Field trips for Geography etc. If there are 2 kids, one who does geography and one who doesn't, is it fair that the non-geographer take priority for the non-curriculum ski trip?

Manic £200 per term must surely be an independent school? No one would pay that for state sector where I am as a private tutor would be the same cost and more flexible and easier to match the right teacher for the particular pupil.

Can't the teacher just be offered more hours? And if that teacher doesn't have the time, it would be easy enough to have two teachers.

This.

I strongly suspect that ds's school uses first come for "extras" to make sure that they actually get replies and - where applicable- the money!

Naty1
"if they cant cope with the kids outside school, its unlikely they are fully coping in school."

Yes, because one must equal the other .
Spoken like someone who hasn't got a clue.

One lad I know is a runner - dangerous outside - lack of parent helpers contributes. What do you suggest a teacher does when he runs off - leave 29 kids??