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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think first come first served is bullshit

111 replies

Pantone363 · 03/12/2015 09:48

and is actually just "which parents can come up with the spare cash the quickest?"

Music lessons at school, £70, first come first served.

AIBU?

OP posts:
Original poster
Pantone363 · 03/12/2015 12:15

Primary school, there are only 10 spaces for each instrument guitar/piano

OP posts:
tbtc20 · 03/12/2015 12:15

mouldy I understand entirely. When I said that this was deception (ie some children are not even making it to that hat), you said they were excluding the naughty children from risky trips so I asked you to clarify - whether in fact you meant children were being excluded for valid reasons (risk assessment bla bla).

You have clarified your point.

tbtc20 · 03/12/2015 12:17

compo No thanks? That's sad.

Ipigglemustdie · 03/12/2015 12:19

So this is why I never got picked for anything!?! Sad

Enjolrass · 03/12/2015 12:33

Of course picking names from a hat is fair. It's random

That doesn't make it fair.

There is every chance the same child will miss out on several things. Or the same child will get to do several things.

tbtc20 · 03/12/2015 12:44

Yes it does. As I said above: OED defines fair as: treating people equally without favouritism or discrimination.

Picking from a hat is exactly that as long as you're in the bloody hat to start with

ArcheryAnnie · 03/12/2015 13:21

samcrow I'm pretty sure the TA was sacked (as she should have been). Making a decision to not take that girl on every trip on the basis of her safety and other pupils' safety would not have been "discriminating" against her, any more than taking her would have been "discriminating" against all the other kids whose trip was buggered up.

My DS once got a trip as a good behaviour reward - a few kids from each class were being taken to see a performance. He and the other kids from his class going on it missed it as the teacher was taken up with the girl kicking off in class time, and therefore not sending out the trip kids in time to get the coach. My DS was pretty sanguine about it, as were the other kids who missed it, as they were used to this by now.

In this kind of circumstance the teachers and the school has to balance fairness to the one pupil with fairness to the other pupils, too. (I think the school usually managed this horrendously difficult task very well.)

IGotAPea · 03/12/2015 14:58

When on work experience as part of my Nursery Nurse course two placements took steps to leave children out who they thought were difficult.

One was to present the queen mother with something when she was visiting. (Going back a few years now!) and the other was some waterpark type trip.

Both draws were done in public in front of parents so it looked fair, but it wasn't. One school had the children they didn't want to go folded up extra, and the other had the children they'd rather not take to the water park on a different coloured piece of paper.

After qualifying only one place tried to exclude a child from a trip, they tried to plan it around the days they didn't attend (private daycare), I said I would go in on my day off for free to work one on one with the child so that they could go, which I ended up doing, child behaved brilliantly.

If a child's behaviour is of as much a concern to make the trip unsafe, then this should be discussed with parents. They should know why their dc can't go. It's mean to just deliberately not give them the same chance as others.

In theory names from a hat should be random and fair, but I'm always suspicious of them.

QueenofLouisiana · 03/12/2015 16:55

DS's school did the first come first served thing for clubs. We complained as DS attended after school club and so was never collected by anyone who could sign a form and rush it back to the teacher that evening.

The system has now changed, but DS isn't interested any more. We arranged out of school clubs which we could get him to and he's kept those up.

toffeeboffin · 03/12/2015 17:01

'First come, first served' is a great way to create a sense of urgency and to suggest limited numbers, a lot of the time necessarily.

I used to write this on documents all the time when trying to get documents back from kids. It always worked.

honkinghaddock · 03/12/2015 17:20

There are very few school trips that challenging children cannot go on provided they are given adequate support.If I was the parent of the child abandoned by the TA, I would be fuming that my child had been put at risk. Schools cannot just leave out children who are more difficult but have to ensure that reasonable adjustments have been considered and will still not enable the child to go on the trip.

ArcheryAnnie · 03/12/2015 17:44

If I was the parent of the child abandoned by the TA, I would be fuming that my child had been put at risk.

Alas, in this case, the parent didn't give a shit about any risk to her. The school at that point was the best, most stable thing about that girl's life, and the only people who did give a damn about her. It was a school with not much money, a very low-income demographic, and a lot of challenging kids (of which she was the most challenging by a mile). The teachers performed miracles - but they also had other kids to be fair to, too.

(In the end the kid was taken into care, which honestly was a lottery win compared to her previous life.)

ArcheryAnnie · 03/12/2015 17:46

And any kid could go on any trip if the support is there. But support costs money, of which there is a limited amount.

LunchpackOfNotreDame · 03/12/2015 17:48

I don't entirely think first come first served is as it seems. We've been late getting things in before and yet one dc has never ever missed an opportunity, even when someone I know got their form in before us missed out.

VinciWinchi · 03/12/2015 17:52

I organize school trips and we quite explicitly say it is NOT first come, first served. We consider all children, whatever their needs, spend a long time assessing the needs in advance and fund an additional adult place if necessary BUT we do reserve the right to exclude pupils whose behaviour is a concern.

Momtothree · 03/12/2015 18:06

School has a three stikes policy, 3 letters hime and you miss trip/disco/club/party etc. Why should kida whi cant behave go on trips that have to be planned organised and paid for?
If they cant sit still and learn basic manners? E.G throwing chairs, biting, hitting etc?
DD left a school because of a child like this it really affected her learning. Why should it affect the days out? If a child wants to be included the parents should attend or the child doesnt go IMO

Kitsandkids · 03/12/2015 18:08

My mum was a teacher at my primary school. I've always known that if there were a certain amount of places for something, or only one person could be chosen to do something, the teachers rigged it to ensure that no one they didn't want to win could win. Their reasoning for it was that this was a bit like a reward and why should the children who'd behaved badly all year be given the reward when other children had been good all year. I'm not saying it's right in every case, but like pps I also know for definite that it does happen.

exLtEveDallas · 03/12/2015 18:18

We do names out of the hat for some exercises - the picking takes place in assembly, names are put in by the children themselves and are then drawn by a teacher in front of the children. We put all names in.

It bites us on the arse sometimes, but it's still the fairest way to do it.

When it is for clubs that aren't paid for (things like after school Lego club etc) then the unsuccessful children automatically get a place the following term.

When it is paid for things (like archery lessons etc) it is names in hat prior to payment and we only do it for one term.

Music lessons are by an outside contractor so they can take as many as they want.

LaLyra · 03/12/2015 19:02

The 'pick out of the hat' discrimination can also go the other way. I've worked in schools where your average well behaved child had no chance of a 'random' place on a trip or event because they were used as a reward or as a carrot for poorly behaved children.

honkinghaddock · 03/12/2015 19:05

Momtothree- my son can"t sit still and sometimes bites and hits because he is disabled. If reasonable adjustments can be made that would enable him to go then I would expect him to go.

ArcheryAnnie · 03/12/2015 19:41

LaLyra I've seen that, too.

Momtothree · 03/12/2015 20:59

Disability is different to kids who refuse to play nice, are just mean, who choose to hit and bite. No?

hogbreath · 04/12/2015 05:18

Our school does aptatude testing for instrumental lessons. My A student didn't pass while my struggler did. Our lessons are free . You only need to provide or hire an instrument.

theescripted · 04/12/2015 05:52

tbtc20

Picking names out of a hat is never random at the schools where I've worked...

IguanaTail · 04/12/2015 06:22

I've found that the naughty kids are the best ones on trips. Their frustration at being indoors and being made to do something they find hard is all taken away and they are free to socialise and do the activities they have signed up for. They are often the most helpful as well - it's a relief for them because they can show their nice side. You then see what the parents mean when they say "he's fine at home"!