In tears

[G1veMeStrength]

Fucking parliament. You utter bastards. You're going to kill people and it won't stop anything.

You could say that about the fighters in any war/war like scenario though little. Just because those fighting might not have chosen to fight under different circumstances does not make them innocent civilians.

What are the supplies that you'd take down non-militarily? Hawala? Bit coins? Illegal antiquities trade?

Arms smuggling routes? Counterfeiting? People trafficking routes and other means to illegally cross borders?

There aren't any conspicuous successes in any of those areas, and it would be time consuming with no guarantee of success.

Denying territory (so there are no training camps, no safe haven for planners and recruiters, and making them look unsuccessful, beaten and no longer attractive) is more likely to be achievable.

It won't end the threat from extremists, but it could significantly reduce the harm that this lot are inflicting.

it does not negate the fact that an estimated 30% of 'ISIS' fighters are in fact normal civilians who have been forced under threat of death, rape and torture to fight for them. It is not as clear cut as 'goodies v baddies'.

You could have used that argument for not opposing any army of any nasty regime that used conscripts.

Yes Atticus, but the complexities of warfare and that big grey area (in which we have been instrumental) are hardly likely to be resolved by airstrikes with no broader strategy are they?

I haven't read all the thread. I don't know what the solution is. However, this reminds me of the Vietnam war in that all the military might of the USA couldn't defeat a committed guerrilla army.

I don't believe for one moment that Dodgy Dave Cameron cares two hoots about the people of Syria.

I don't think it's going to solve anything, you can't fight (wrong) ideology with bombs.

Unfortunately brutal dictators tend to hold disparate groups together. Once they're gone, things fall apart. Yugoslavia showed that. Does that mean it's better not to oppose certain dictatorships if their foreign policy is favourable to the UK? That's been at the heart of our foreign policy for hundreds of years.

'ISIS' fighters are in fact normal civilians . It is not as clear cut as 'goodies v baddies'.

Now I've heard it all.
They're terrorists.
Terrorists going around killing people on purpose.
And yet you feel sympathy for them?

Where's the sympathy for all the people these terrorists have murdered?

Thats exactly what i think killbing, it will only make it worse. Hence the hydra quote. The nazis didnt have large chunks of people operating on their behalf, beating them was achievable. This, with its focus on twisted religon and disenfranchised youth is really not the same.

And its a waste of money, though im sure arms dealers will be happy.

I have hated the whole rhetoric around 'bombing syria'.

DC: 'let's bomb Syria out of solidarity with our French brothers and sisters' - yeah right, just a few weeks ago, the media was awash with how we don't want to be part of Europe and suddenly we are France's bff. We sing the national anthem, we stand shoulder to shoulder with them. Strange how we didn't really feel so close to our French neighbours a few weeks ago and felt that our European allies were a threat to the UK, not just as economic migrants but also because of wanting to be independent of Brussels.

DC exploited the paris attacks to launch a simplistic but effective campaign to go to war. He constantly talked about the imminent threat to the UK, scaremongering.

I am also on the fence, though i did vote 'no' in the MN poll. But the way this war is being sold to the public is disgusting. Our politicians really do not think much of the rest of the population, do they?

Oh Jees viiolet, there's nothing like a bit of selective quoting is there? You sound like David Cameron and i feel like demanding an apology from you. I am saying that around 30% do not share the ISIS ideology. I actually got my stats wrong. This from the BBC: "To help mitigate the manpower losses, ISIS have turned to conscription in some areas. Iraqi expert Hisham al-Hashimi believes only 30% of the group's fighters are 'idealogues', with the remainder joining out of fear or coercion."

I object in the strongest terms possible being called a terrorist sympathiser btw.

Givemestrength wrote Fucking parliament. You utter bastards.

It's a democratic process thankfully in this country. Everyone was given a chance to speak and put their case forward and they had ten hours to do so, though some did so with threats of deselection and a protest outside their Constituency office - Stella Creasy amongst others.

If you don't agree with a democratic Parliament and process, perhaps you're living in the wrong country.

Ten Conservatives voted against, but, as far as I'm aware, they haven't received threats.

And i think the Goebels quote upthread was excellent, so very relevant. Here one of histories most evil men described the simple strategy of propaganda. DC is applying this propaganda style to the dot.

Of course I will turn a stupid question back on you! Until you answer...How will this bombing help?

So a perfectly legitimate question that differs to ones you pose is deemed stupid? Wow, you're lovely, aren't you.
If you actually care to read my post, NOWHERE did I say I agreed with bombing.
I honestly don't know what's for the best. I hate the fact we are, and was asking what people would do instead.
You blatantly don't know either otherwise you wouldn't be so damn rude and question dodging.
Are you not allowed to ask questions on here anymore or something, how on EARTH is anyone supposed to have a reasoned debate or actually learn something when they get shouted down by people like yourselves?!

No one really wants this to happen but it has to. We are already targets, we are already the enemy just by living our normal lives.
People now saying they will target us in retaliation- we've been under attack already- we are on the highest alert, planned attacks have been intercepted-we could easily have had more tradegies closer to home recently if our services weren't successful.
The air strikes need to go hand in hand with ongoing intelligence work and at some point on the ground support will become a necessity I think.

And don't you just love the beautiful images of warplanes on the BBC news site? yes, war a thing of exciting beauty. So much for objective reporting. I wish we could get rid of the BBC and really do not wish to pay licence fees for such a government biased news agent.

*tragedies

Cameron's speech was incredibly bad, deliberately so I think, Corbyn did outshine him there, but came across as a bit whiney, and given he was the rebel in the party, also hypocritical. But, Cameron couldn't give a four x. He's leaving soon.

We are not on the highest alert. Or at least we have not been. That night change in the near future though.

Even if the bombing is that precise and does indeed limit 'civilian' casualties, it does not negate the fact that an estimated 30% of 'ISIS' fighters are in fact normal civilians who have been forced under threat of death, rape and torture to fight for them. It is not as clear cut as 'goodies v baddies'.

I actually cannot believe I've just read that. Seriously - just seriously? Read that back to yourself. You are coming across as making excuses for terrorists.
We should leave them alone then in case they were made to do it?
Posts like this are absolutely insane.

I guess they are showing the Corbyn way of showing sympathy... Yep, you died in a terrorist attack, but you only have yourself to blame, you stupid result of a imperialist system I cannot possibly condone but enjoy the fruit of anyway....
For sure, the guys on the other side can only be considered freedom fighters, they are beautiful people in a sad sad war, fighting against Islamophobia in the world. How dare western people say that you should not allow everything in the Coran or whatever stupid hadith prescribes in their own country! How dare you even mention the Nazis, it's obviously completely different!

Shock horror Kryptonite I have voiced an opinion... on a thread full of... opinions!

Hilary Benn's speech last night was spell-binding, especially this flourish towards the end:

"And we are here faced by fascists. Not just their calculated brutality, but their belief that they are superior to every single one of us in this chamber tonight and all of the people we represent. They hold us in contempt. They hold our values in contempt. They hold our belief in tolerance and decency in contempt. They hold our democracy – the means by which we will make our decision tonight – in contempt."

War is nasty; any military activity is but it's a necessary evil and we simply cannot stand by and do nothing.

For what it is worth, our response will not be merely to bomb - there will be other 'discreet' capabilities used against ISIS also.

Wow there are some nasty bastards on this thread

Everybody who doesn't have the same point of view as you is a nasty bastard?

That doesn't seem like a very mature way to conduct a discussion

I thought Hilary Benn's speech was typical political spiel to be honest. Don't really understand what was so great about it. The rhetoric was pretty similar to that which Blair used to try to convince everyone that war in Iraq was a brilliant idea.