to think this is unacceptable

[mileend2bermondsey]

Just found out that in my hometown high school PE activities are still split by gender. The boys do football and rugby, the girls do netball and hockey. When the girls do dance, the boys do tennis. I cant believe this seperation is still going on without question.

Apparantly if a child 'kicks up a fuss' about wanting to do a sport of the opposite gender they will be allowed to do it but would be the only boy or girl in the class, hence hardly any do.

I think this is outrageous, all children should be taught all sports available as standard. Why is a seperation based on gender neccessary, and why is this still going on?

I think you're within reason to be upset, but possibly not shocked - a lot of schools in my area, particularly the older grammar schools, still separate their sports by sex. Ridiculous, really! A girl could end up being a five star footballer but, never given the opportunity, would never know it.

Having faint memories of hockey and badminton coming out.
So glad i am no longer at school.
These were bad enough!

At DDs school they are seperated for PE classes, and girls do football and hockey in winter, but girls are allowed to play football and rugby at lunchtime clubs.

I think that school PE and Games have a lot to answer for. They put swathes of people off the subject as they remember the lessons as misery. People think me quite sporty now as I run, ski, play racket sports, swim and dance. It took me decades to get over school sports.
I think there should be choice. I shudder to think of having to play football and rugby and then just bracingly be told 'it is just conditioning that you don't think they are for you'!
I would have hated, even more, having mixed lessons. I used to run around in hockey, trying to look as if I was doing something while avoiding all contact with the ball- mixed hockey would have been hell!

It is useless telling me that I have the wrong attitude - the jolly 'rubbish it is fun' attitude put me off even more.

Well, that was entertaining reading. I see Pinot was up to her usual tricks (although I have my suspicions that Pinot is a man in disguise) ...

OP, you are quite right.

• In schools, boys and girls should be made to play the same sports. In my school (in the 90s), boys also participated in gymnastics, drama and dance. They weren't given something else to do just because they had a penis.
• No child should be allowed to sit out of PE / Phys Ed just because they "don't like the sport". School is about trying new things and having new experiences. (And I say this as someone who is not sporty at all and HATED PE)
• Teams should only be mixed according to ability, but as that's quite hard to determine in a casual once-a-week PE lesson (speaking about the UK in the 90s here), there is nothing wrong with an all boys netball team or an all girls rugby team.
• There is no such thing as "boys sports" or "girls sports". Anyone claiming that, or claiming that girls naturally gravitate to "brainier" subjects, is dismissing the persistent and pervasive sexism that tells boys and girls that only certain subjects are for them.

I won't be entering into a debate on this subject (you can't debate with the uneducated that don't want to hear other points of view - and keep changing their own), but suffice to say, OP, I think you are absolutely correct.

The biggest problem is that so many of you say you hated sec. school PE.
Kids are taught mixed sex in primary and do the full range of sports. There was a huge injection of cash about 10 years ago and all the Sports Partnerships were set up. It extended the range of sports available in primary. I don't know about secondary.
The problem is that it's not cool to like sport at secondary school for many children.

IT was nothing to do with 'being cool'. It was 'the cool kids ' who were in school teams.

I second that, the "cool" thing was to love sports in fact "forgetting your kit" or having an "injury was likely to be a source of derision at my school.

DDs school do mixed PE classes. When they did rugby (including contact), the boys were absolutely horrified when my DD was able to tackle them (her Dad had shown her how), outrun them, catch/throw and score tries. She is slightly built but pure muscle as she does a lot of sport outwith school.

Had she not been given the chance to play rugby at school, she would not have been spotted by the PE teacher and grabbed for the local girls team (we didn't even know there was one). She's now playing full-contact girls rugby and loving it (and she's still in one piece)!

Despite the fact that she's sporty, she was coming home after every PE class raging because the boys were so 'annoying' as any time she (or other girls) got past them/scored against them, the boys promptly started blaming each other/being incredulous that this could happen. These are the attitudes we need to challenge in sport, and that starts in early primary school, where little boys are telling little girls that they 'can't play football/have to get off the pitch'.

Football dominated playtime at the school I used to teach at. Three all - weather pitches, all full of boys playing football. When I (repeatedly) raised this as an issue and suggested that one of the pitches could be used for basketball/netball, this was dismissed as 'football keeps the boys out of trouble at playtime'.

Girls need opportunities to play physically challenging sports when they're younger, but boys also need to learn that sport isn't just their domain. Teachers/parents need to challenge the stereotypes. It would help if more coverage was given to women's team sports. I think a lot of people are surprised at the quality of e.g. women's football when they see it played.

As it stands, I'm almost coming down in favour of single sex PE lessons as by Secondary the boys' attitudes towards girls even attempting sport are often quite appalling and so the girls don't even want to try. Children should all get a fair chance to play all sports, but without the jeering that seems to happen in mixed lessons.

Keeptrudging

I honestly don't think boys think it's their domain, but being constantly told that they have to be careful not to hurt the girls probably means that most feel they can't participate properly.

It was seen as a release and a real chance for competition and to get some aggression out, and whilst there are girls like your DD that can match the boys at least at the very start they would have that in the back of their mind, then when someone like your DD comes along ok they may feel like they don't have to go easy on her but what about the rest, and if they are hard and something happens then everyone would blame them.

Plus there's the people who don't like losing, and the attitude that they have to be careful because girls are less physically strong brings in the thoughts that they shouldn't be losing.

I don't see an issue with mixed classes (although from pp emphasis I understand that's not being asked) but in my opinion there's a long way to go before it becomes a possibility, the change of attitudes to both boys and girls attributes and expectations in sport, the point of the class itself just for a start

Dd's school is how you describe sport should be op. They're separated into girls and boys groups but both sexes play all the sports whether it's football, netball, tampolining or whatever. I'm surprised that's not a standard approach.

If your child has a want for a sport then find one outside the curriculum then

Why, when it's already on the curriculum but illogically limited to only part of the pupil population?

Pinot took all the trouble to pm me to abuse me about a comment on another thread. Looking at this one, she seems very happy to dish out the sort of conduct which she was incorrectly accusing me of.

Candy, I've had many years of working with little boys and girls, when they are physically quite similar sizes, so no concerns there about boys having to play gently in case they injure the girls. The attitudes become entrenched really early.

I've regularly seen little P1 boys ordering girls off the pitch/saying it's 'just for boys', and the girls walking away because it seems unquestionable. Ditto boys having a little snigger amongst themselves about girls playing sport, or if a girl misses a catch. We need to be seeing more positive female role models earlier on. The damage is done by late primary, with girls 'forgetting' their kit/opting out.

These are the attitudes we need to challenge in sport, and that starts in early primary school, where little boys are telling little girls that they 'can't play football/have to get off the pitch' This is indeed a problem. I used to stop games of football, rugby and hockey in PE and insist that every second pass was to a girl.

Derxa

Whilst admirable doesn't that cause a few issues, for example if there's less girls it puts more pressure on them? Also the least skilled players already get the lowest chance of playing so limits their chances even more, and the better skilled girls will be the ones getting the ball the same as the boys

Although admittedly I don't see how else it could be improved.

Yes this was annoying for the skilled boys and girls but I did it only for short periods of time in practice matches. It was tied in with the concept of fairness and inclusiveness.

Many boys are able to spend every break/lunchtime/after school playing football. This is why they get better and better at it. As long as girls keep getting excluded from this, they can't develop the same skills/level of fitness.

If there was a 'girls only' pitch, or other sports were offered, I do think more of them would play, then they would also get better/enjoy playing more. Not all would want to, but I think it would be more than a handful if they got the chance.

What a damned hypocrite you are, mileend2bermondsey - one minute complaining that boys and girls should have a right to choose any sport and the next saying they should all be forced to do everything against their will. Rugby is a stupid, dangerous game and imo should only be played by those who are willing to take the risks. Over my dead body will all girls be forced to do something I don't think boys should ever be forced to do! You just don't like the fact that by giving girls a choice, you are unlikely to get enough girls in a single year group who actively want to make up two rugby teams. Set up a club within the school by all means, but what makes you think forcing all children to do rugby is an improvement in the PE curriculum?!

Pinot - perhaps females don't choose male dominated subjects and sports as from the age of 0 they are told "this is male and that is female" I went to a girls school and plenty went on to do sciences - being told that you can do any subject you dammed well like helps imo - plenty of my school friends went on to study science and do well in male dominated fields.

I dont think letting the students pick and chose which activities or subjects they want to do is a wise choice, nearly everyone would be dropping maths in that scenario! Everyone should do the same activities/subjects regardless of sex. Cant get more fair and equal than that.

What nonsense. In Scotland all children do all subjects until the point where it becomes obvious they have different aptitudes, interests and talents then they start selecting.

I had no interest or aptitude in sport, it bored and continues to bore me. I really hate this bone-headed attitude that everyone must participate in sport, no doubt the usual suspects will appear telling me I didn't like it because I'm too stupid to realise it's just because I'm giving into the pressure to be feminine.

The nation would come to no harm whatsoever if nobody was forced to participate in rugby.

Or hockey.

Lots of boys don't like sport too (my son being one of them). It's equal access to sport which is the ideal. How will children know which sport floats their boat if they never get to try them?

And once you've tried and disliked?... You should then continue though to the age of 18?...
My dss' got to try all sorts at primary school, where boys and girls had the same lessons. They did tag rugby, hockey, netball, athletics, badminton, tennis, football etc. Tag rugby is one thing, though, and rugby another. Not everyone is designed for full contact sports. And, of course, having tried so many sports at primary, the majority of children were very poor at all of them. Those who were any good were in clubs outside of school in activities chosen independently of what they did in school.