To feel slightly put out at the implication that IVF babies are more precious?

[jollyfrenchy]

As part of a discussion about choking and cutting grapes for small children, one lady said she also wouldn't be giving her daughter raw apple or carrot pieces until she was 5 years old for fear of choking. When she was then told she was being a bit overly paranoid. In response she agreed, but explained it by saying that it took 11 years of trying and 2 rounds of IVF to have her daughter, and she wasn't willing to take any risks at all.

Now, I do understand that sort of experience has an effect on you, but I slightly resent the implication that her child is somehow more precious than others. Kind of like, "Oh well you can afford to take risks, you've got three kids, and anyway, you if you lost one you could always have another. This is the only one I've got and will ever have so I need to look after her more."

Er, no every one of my children is as precious and important as yours, it's just that in life you have to take risks and eating apples is a risk I'm prepared for them to take.

Also surely it's not beneficial to your oh so precious child's well being to wrap them in cotton wool and never take ANY risk with them. In a similar way I know people who had a hard time having their baby or who adopted after years of heartache, who then go on to completely spoil the child (never say no, let them have their own way all the time etc) because they're so grateful to have them. Again, not doing the child any favours really.

Bamboo I'm getting seriously pissed off now. Are you personally invested in this scenario? As I, and lots of other posters are. Both my children were naturally conceived, as you put it, but I lost several of them between the two. And did that make every moment of my final pregnancy more special, and yet more gut-wrenchingly anxious, than my first pregnancy? Damn right it did. Are they equal and do I love them equally? Yes. Was my experience of their birth and early years different? Yes.

I can understand why Hard earned children feel more precious.

I would let them be.
They can't help how they feel.

If they start being more insulting I would tell them they were talking shite

I didn't say he was more precious, actually. I said that I panic more. So thanks for your unpleasant comments.

Yes, I see her point too - although she worded it badly.

How would you have worded it Manor? If she'd said "if something happened I fear this would be my last chance at parenthood" that's fine. That's about her and her feelings. But to say that, if my 30+ week foetus died, I could 'just' have another one is really not ok.

You have to go through the utter shit that is infertility to grasp how people feel. I would never say my DC are more precious than anyone else's outwardly but internally of course my DC are on a pedestal. It's difficult to explain to someone who hasn't been through it but there's little point in being offended for the hell of it. Be grateful you didn't have an issue conceiving. And didn't blame yourself for the problem. Or tell your DH/DW that they would be better off leaving you to find someone who could give them a child. Or lie awake at night wondering "why us?". Or wonder what the fuck you will do to fill the dirty great gaping hole in your life where children were going to be, thinking that travelling around the world/getting a cat will do the job. Or didn't have to avoid anyone you know with children in a social setting because it's just too difficult to cope.

You know what OP, does it affect you if your friend or anyone else who has a child through fertility treatment want to feel like their child is more precious? You sound petty and unkind and you don't get to control or gave a say in other people's feelings.

It's really obvious to me that I panic about him more than my friends with 2+ children. If I lost him, I would no longer be a parent, that's the thing. And anyone who can't see that is a fucking idiot, quite frankly.

My ds was an only child and I was told I wasn't likely to have more children after him. He died. I was fucking devestated beyond belief.

I went on to have 2 more children before I had my dd. She died. I was fucking devestated beyond belief.

The death of both of my children was equally painful, equally life changing and equally cruel.

How fucking dare you suggest otherwise.

No, stampy, that is not what your post, that I highlighted, said at all!

Why are you getting pissed off rain?

You mentioned nothing of your pregnancy, just of how your DC2 was more precious! I judge you for it. Like it, don't like it, not my problem.
This view is neither reasonable as a mother, nor understandable from another mother with 3DC and I'm calling you on it.

OP don't worry about it there will always be someone who can make you feel concerned or worried or bad about how you parent... but the facts are no child no matter how long they took to conceive, how many miscarriages, medical procedures, miracles involved can be more precious than your OWN child it's that simple and not everyone is the same and that's cool ...sometimes people put their own anxieties upon others without even realizing ...YANBU because she has the right to express how she feels and you have the right to feel how you do also

I've had one child through assisted conception and am currently trying for a second.

There are some people on this thread who are illustrating exactly the reason why if I had to talk to someone at work or outside about anything to do with the treatment, aside from my closest friends I would always choose to speak to a man rather than a woman.

This is something I discovered during treatment which came as a huge surprise. There is a sizeable minority of women who've had children naturally who seem to feel an almost entirely irrational fury at the mere mention of fertility treatment.

This was something I was totally unprepared for and it was a massive shock. At first I assumed that if I needed to confide in someone then someone who had small children would probably be a fairly safe bet for a bit of understanding. I was very, very wrong about that, and there are some women amongst that group who direct a level of hatred, spite and vitriol at women who have fertility treatment which I found hard to believe at first. Sad but true.

To be honest OP it sounds like you and your friends are horribly judgemental. Why did any of you feel the need to tell her she was being overprotective - what does it matter to you if she wants to cut up grapes and withhold certain foods.

How can you take offence to her explanation when you were all basically telling her she was parenting her child incorrectly. She is parenting in a certain way because of her experiences. Unless she turned around and said you don't care about your children because you parent differently then this whole thread is pretty pointless.

But to say that, if my 30+ week foetus died, I could 'just' have another one is really not ok.

It is true though, I repeat my point, that as (from what you have posted) you have never experienced this, you will never fully understand it.

She did word the sentiment badly, I agree - but the fact remains. You sound really lacking in compassion to take such umbrage at the semantics of the words she actually used.

I got pregnant immediately both times. My children are far more precious than anyone else's. They are adults, I still worry about them and still try to protect them from danger. The thought of losing either of them makes my blood run cold. Surely I am not unusual?

Bamboo I will reprint my own post so you can read it again, rather than picking on one word, and possibly draw on your stores of empathy that I'm sure you have somewhere.
Dc2 fits into the category for me of being more "precious" as he is a rainbow baby born after years of difficulties. I am more anxious with him as I have seen how easily it can all go wrong.
It does not mean I love him more than dc1, but I am far more aware of how hard it is to even have a child and how lucky I am, so yes I would describe him as being more "precious" to me as he was so hard come by
Still struggling to understand why you are judging me for this and I suspect your own experience has been very different. But great to know that in addition to an almost unbearable grief I get to have your judgment too.

I am not lacking in compassion and you know naff all about what I or my family have experienced. Regardless of what any person has gone through , I am still of the view that it's not ok to say to a pregnant woman that they could just replace their baby if it died.

M4blues "And Ds1&2 are 12&10 and I still cut their grapes."

Why? That is so extraordinary that you must have a good reason for doing so.

Haven't read all the ft, but when I was pg with DC1, one of the things that I remember most clearly about my 1st scan was saying to the nurse that even if it looked like I may be carrying a baby with Downs, I wouldn't want to have an amino because I wouldn't want to risk a MC (I'd have wanted to know to prepare for a baby with Downs, but I wouldn't have ended the pregnancy because of it, so I didn't want to risk the pregnancy either). She said that even people with particularly precious pregnancies tend to have amnios.

I didn't know what she meant until she told me that she was talking about IVF pregnancies and that 'these are women who can't just have another baby'. Of course she didn't mean that mine was disposable, but it certainly felt like it at the time.

Read your post again rain and my views are still the same.
You describe your DC2 as more 'precious' to you! Can't see how/why he is more precious to you than your DC1 - but there you go!

I think you are looking at this the wrong way.

She isn't saying her children are more precious than hers. She is giving you a reason for her being more PFB/neurotic about safety issues.

You said yourself that she agreed to being overly paranoid, before going on to explain why.

Don't try and be professionally offended by it. She is giving you an explanation for her approach, not slighting your family

I have also read that there is a much higher instance of PND in women who have babies through IVF, the suggestion being that by the time they reach the point of having the baby, they have an expectation of this miracle being which they will love unconditionally inspite of everything that being a new parent involves..

Only imho of course, but I don't think that's true in all cases.

My pregnancy was easy by comparison to most but I hated it, I'm not a natural. I carelessly joked one day to a friend who'd been witness to our struggles over the years that we didn't look closely enough into surrogacy. I was put firmly in my place about appreciating every second considering what it took to get to this point.

There is an expectation you're meant to live up to and express publically if you've struggled to have a family. It's not surprising that some women are unable to work through their anxiety when a pressure to be so grateful does exist.

I resent it tbh and feel I've earned my 'normality' now, but there's a definite set of societal rules you're meant to navigate with regards to infertility/loss and any subsequent successes. I can't pretend to understand it or even know what they all are, but there's a definite layer of judgement that doesn't exist with 'normal' fertility. I can categorically state it exists though because it's not something I've gone around sharing with every Tom, Dick and Harry so have a basis for comparison.

I am still of the view that it's not ok to say to a pregnant woman that they could just replace their baby if it died.

You are entitled to be of that view, I'm sure there are many others who would agree with you and I can see why this would be upsetting for you.

I just see it differently.

Its anxiety not a judgment on the relative preciousness of children.

You really think that's an ok thing to say?

Fuck.

Well takes all sorts I suppose.

Women can make each other feel bad sometimes intentionally... sometimes not... I think we should all give each other a break and stop being judgmental /spiteful even if we may believe we are just expressing ourselves ... yes women who conceive naturally cannot sometimes fully comprehend what a woman goes through to have a child under difficult circumstances...and there are so many other things that happen in the life of another woman that we as women ourselves cannot understand ..In life there are so many ways a person can experience heartache and pain lets try to love and support each other

Another one who thinks Maryz post was excellent.

I'm probably guilty of the same feelings as your friend. DS is our rainbow baby after years of mc and we very nearly lost him too as they stopped some of my medication too soon. I think I'm allowed to feel more anxious and be more cautious in the circumstances and can imagine making a similar comment. I only hope that if I do my friends will be more understanding and take it the way it was meant.

It took me eleven months to conceive which is nothing, at all, compared to what some people go through, but it certainly felt like a lifetime at the time. My friend got pregnant first month. We are different parents totally. She is laid back, doesn't flinch if her baby falls over etc. I am the opposite. I don't think my child is more precious than hers (though he is to me) but almost a year of wondering whether we would ever have a child have made me more sensitive and anxious, definitely.