to think racism is getting worse in light of recent world events?

[thefutureofpolitics]

I ask this as when I opened Mumsnet this morning, there were a few particularly unpleasant threads about the wearing of burka. Are there just some really bigoted people around or is it fear created by recent world events? To these people, would it not be better to understand different cultures and learn from them rather than to tar every Muslim with the same brush of fear and suspicion? There is good and bad in every race and cultural diversity in Britain is a great thing.

Discuss.

You are right OP. Bombing and shooting people of a different race is I agree, pretty racist.

Bombing and shooting people of a different race is I agree, pretty racist.
Look at the pictures of the crowd at the Bataclan ....
metro.co.uk/2015/11/17/crowd-of-happy-concert-goers-pictured-moments-before-slaughter-by-isis-gunmen-5506974/
define "different"

No, that definition of civilised is based upon the same enlightenment into the victoriana notions of civilised. We base our notion of civilisation upon what we have evolved into socially. That is imperialist and it is racist.

If you mean that liberal western democracy is civilised? What conditions of being uncivilised did we overcome? At one time the middle east far surpassed us in terms of knowledge, culture, learning and trade.

And women are more subjugated under capital and more exploited because of their gender than were the serfs wife of feudal Europe. So what is civilised?

I know - I agree - I'm just making the point that the attacks were racially/religiously motivated. They were hardly "random". I would suggest that the perpetrators were likely to be more bigoted than Ms X making a comment on Mumsnet

The assumption in these posts is always that "racism" cannot possibly be anything other than white, (usually British) against whoever else.

For any reasonable discussion this has to be acknowledged.

redstrawberry10

You said:

'frankly, it seems to me that in the UK the british are incredibly good at separating the two. This country is full of people from the indian subcontinent, but there is very little ill will towards hindus and sikhs.'

So you think it's fine for there to be ill will towards Muslims?

You've outed yourself with that narrow minded statement.

There has certainly been an ignorant and racist reaction from a minority of people.
I arranged an appointment for a client and he called me today to advise he doesn't want to attend as the person he is meeting has 'a Muslim name' and he refuses to have an appointment with a Muslim because 'you can't be too careful these days'. He is only prepared a have an appointment with a white man he tells me. I have told him to take his business elsewhere.
I don't think this would have happened last week.

I'm not really sure I know what racism is any more. I think we're too pc for fear of upsetting people.
The terror attacks are causing fear and hatred. That's all I know

I agree the attacks are motivated by difference either cultural, religious, political and/or racial.

However when a white person complains of oppression this is equal to the men's rights activists claiming men are oppressed. Yes some men are. But it is not women doing the oppressing.

In the same way that some white people may experience some racism from other people. It is not an entire globe of black or muslim people oppressing white people.

There is a history. And we in the west, every single one of us has benefitted from the oppression and exploitation of those other races.

Mini, I think you and all the other prating relativists should sod off to Syria and see how well your oh so open-minded notions of power and imperialism and civilisation go down there.

All this lofty stuff about how our notions of civilisation are culturally specific is all very well in student politics but when the chips are down I like where so live and would prefer not to have it relativised by the kind of people who throw gay people off buildings and use 12-year-old girls as sex slaves. So stop spouting the kind of crap that encourages them.

If we have benefitted from the oppression and exploitation of those of other races, surely we have a duty not to turn a blind eye to oppression including the oppression of women who wear burkhas.

It is the law in this country that women are equal, and so to say that it is ok for some women to be treated as second class citizens just because of their race/religion seems racist to me.

Minitheminx
No, that definition of civilised is based upon the same enlightenment into the victoriana notions of civilised. We base our notion of civilisation upon what we have evolved into socially. That is imperialist and it is racist.

WHAT
is imperialist and racist about wanting to grant the same rights to all people ?
WHAT
is imperialist and racist about pointing out that indiscriminate murder kills those of the same faith and race as the murderers?
WHAT
is imperialist and racist about despising medieval nihilism that blows up sites like Palmyra?

Oh but I'm not a relativist. I am merely pointing out the problem of liberal values and relativism and the contradictions inerrant in them.

Liberal western democracy preaches possessive individualism, free choice, relativist morality, and wants to extend this same ideology over the entire globe. It wants to extend equality of a very specific hue. That is cultural imperialism. And its reason...capital.

I am as appalled by isis and terrorism as the next person.

There is a contradiction in preaching equality when you enforce this upon them.

If liberal values of difference and equality are to be protected then you can't enforce those values. To do so is contradictory.

We have benefited from the exploitation of other nations. We continue to do so. Britain is one of the leading arms exporters. Our economy was built on slavery, colonialism, indebting third world nations, stealing natural resources, outsourcing, exporting capital, unfair trade tarrifs , and waging wars. And it still is. I'm not a relativist I'm a marxist.

I don't though subscribe to absolutism in morality. All these ideas are formed in practice. Ideas do not equal facts. Ideas do not depend from the sky and become fact. Or else we would all be praying to God's.

Bloody phone *descend not depend

I'm not a relativist I'm a marxist.
2 legs good, 4 legs bad.

So you do not believe that all people are born equal.
Bye then.
Go live in a country that thinks the same as you.

No, you are a relativist. Spouting on about imperialist this and Victorian that and refusing to take a moral stand when faced with the worst threat to our civilisation since the Nazis makes you a hand-wringing relativist appeaser, whatever you choose to call yourself.

I don't care about the contradictions in Western civilisation. Europe's empires are no worse than any other in human history. The Enlightenment brought uncountable benefits to us and we should be standing up for the values of reason and justice and equality, not mimsying on about paradoxes while the best of what the Enlightenment left us is dismantled in front of our eyes by a bunch of theocratic fascists who rape prepubescents for fun.

OTheHugeManatee, thank you so very much. So much of what I have read on this thread and on other similar ones on mumsnet and elsewhere has made me want to beat my head against the wall. All the self-serving, self-congratulatory, ill-informed dreck spouted by those who mistakenly believe that they are authorities on history, religion, culture, and morality is sickening. (Sorry about all the hyphens and commas -- not as good a writer as Manatee!) So again, Manatee, thank you for your boldness and incisiveness.

OTheHugeManatee I love you I do.

You have a way about you that leaves me quite starstruck. I wish I could climb inside your brain.

All people are born equal...but not all people have equality. When we in the west have actually created real equality maybe then we can pontificate about it. Instead we have homelessness and food banks.

No I'm not a relativist. Look back at the earliest post I wrote. I have critiqued relativism.

Not one of you can see that it has been the policy of Britain and America to destabilise the middle east. We are reaping what our capitalist war mongering states have sown.

The back slapping and cheering belongs in the playground.

Well, if you can't see that it's Enlightenment thinking and a capitalist civilisation that gives you the time and space to sit there on your computer (a product of capitalist consumerism) on the Internet (also a product of capitalist consumerism as well as the US military) and moan about inequality or make baseless jibes about the playground, then relativist or not you are still helping to enable this bunch of theocratic child-raping fascists with your limp equivocations.

When we in the west have actually created real equality maybe then we can pontificate about it.

what? Until we have a perfect society we can't criticize?

Not one of you can see that it has been the policy of Britain and America to destabilise the middle east.

what is the evidence for this? It's not policy to destabilise the middle east, but it has been the outcome of the policy.

But does that say something worse about us, or those societies? If the presence of a brutal dictator was needed to contain sectarian and religious violence, there are deeper problems than america.

The western ideas of equality and liberalism are different. They are better. unless you can explain what's good about keeping women down.

If liberal values of difference and equality are to be protected then you can't enforce those values. To do so is contradictory.

the problem is that ISIS wants to force its crazy ideology on the people of the middle east that want nothing to do with it. Is that right?

So you think it's fine for there to be ill will towards Muslims? hmm You've outed yourself with that narrow minded statement.

I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics took place to have that as the take home message. Someone above claimed this is all about race and colour. As the rather uncontroversial presence of hindus and sikhs (same colour and race as many muslims) indicates, it's not about race.

But about ill will towards muslims, we should guard against targeting the people (muslims), which is very bad, and have our sights squarely on the religion (islam). As an ideology, it should receive no protection, and be under everyone's scrutiny. I have no problem targeting islam over christianity or other religions. it simply has more bad ideas. I want bad conservative ideas from Islam to get the same treatment as bad conservative ideas in Christianity.

OTheHugeManatee - Well said. Very well said. But you will not be popular on MN!

Minitheminx
When we in the west have actually created real equality maybe then we can pontificate about it.
ODFOD
At least we TRY
whereas murderous medievalists just want to destroy everything and not learn from anything

while using the the technology and freedoms they purport to despise

There's a fine balancing act between respecting other people's culture, and also protecting the freedoms that we earned through blood, sweat and tears.
It's one of the more problematic issues with multiculturalism I think