to think racism is getting worse in light of recent world events?

[thefutureofpolitics]

I ask this as when I opened Mumsnet this morning, there were a few particularly unpleasant threads about the wearing of burka. Are there just some really bigoted people around or is it fear created by recent world events? To these people, would it not be better to understand different cultures and learn from them rather than to tar every Muslim with the same brush of fear and suspicion? There is good and bad in every race and cultural diversity in Britain is a great thing.

Discuss.

I think talkinpeace made a very valuable point about the way things are interpreted. There are different extremes of religion. And of course some things are just plain wrong, such as the practices mentioned by some posters, nobody could ever deny that. However, some aspects of the Bible are also very suspect and just like the Quran have been used as an excuse to carry out some horrendous acts. On the subjects mentioned above, on homosexuality, the Bible says: "If a man lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 18:22) and organisations such as the secret Christian sect the Russian Skoptsy quoted passages from Matthew 19:12 to support the female circumcision ritual. Religion can be dangerous, whichever it is, it is all down to the way those scriptures are interpreted by its followers. The Bible is just as messed up as the Quran. The God of the Old Testament could be seen to be an absolute monster for a start.

"It was Christianity which first painted the devil on the worlds wall; It was Christianity which first brought sin into the world. Belief in the cure which it offered has now been shaken to it's deepest roots; but belief in the sickness which it taught and propagated continues to exist". - Friedrich Nietzsche.

However I'm sure you would (rightly) condemn people who asked their Muslim next door neighbour to feel responsible/ashamed for the bombers

This struck a chord with me.

I am very lapsed catholic but watching Philomena even though it has nothing to do with Catholism, I did feel shame and of course The Magdelan sisters. Much of what was going on was also happening in other schools, institutions etc...but I did feel ashamed. I felt angry.

I don't know what it says about me, it hasn't been the only thing with Catholics, but I felt a good step away - again from the faith.

I know its done alot of good in the world, but I also feel its so rotten.

saveforthat
I think that there would be less racism if some high ranking muslim (like pope equivalent) made say a tv broadcast saying that true muslims should not associate themselves with these lunatics.
But there is no high ranking muslim who is not utterly despised by another

THe splits within Islam - particularly between Sunni and Shia - which have been so expertly exploited by the Saudi Wahabists over the last 50 years are pretty much beyond repair

and the ISIS people are just nihilists - they want nothing rather than anything

OP, there is no papal equivalent in Islam, that's the point. You need to do your own research anb reading and talking are excellent starts.

Be unafraid to question and make up your own mind, even if you are erroneously accused of racism by people who want to shut down the debate.

I studied the Koran for several hours a day for a year, in Arabic and English and I can assure you that there are many interpretations and contradictions. As well as the scriptures, there is also the spoken word and so you cannot expect to find a definitive ruling on covering as you seem to ask in your opening post.

You need to make up your own mind about the idea of covering the heads of one gender and how that sits in a country where the concept of equality is enshrined in law.

Well you obviously have a view but it's not on my radar at all.

I don't see racism anywhere near the level I remember in my area in the 70s/80s. It's far better now.

If your thread was really about religious intolerance and not race then again I don't see any real antagonism to Islam from the general public which in the circumstances should be something to be proud of.

I still reserve the right to say I find the burkha a detestable and gross symbol of mysogynism.

And that's not in any way a racist remark.

there are drs in uk and every country who are happy to take$$ for cutting off fe/male genitalian parts.

I hope you're right Badly that people's attitudes are changing but looking at the media/social networking, you can see the hostility stirring up between people - exactly what the small minority of lunatics who call themselves Muslims want...

And that's not in any way a racist remark

No, it's a civilised, considered opinion and because you live here you may say so.

The worst that will happen is shrieks of 'RACIST!' and load of obscure, ill-informed mud slinging from virtue-signallers who should look up and find some real injustice into which they could channel their considerable and misguided appetites for thought-policing.

Olivepip59 Yes, I absolutely agree and I have absolutely no problem making my own mind up whatsoever. I simply thought it would be a good thread where people could share their opinions on the types of threads that had been going around earlier, that was all. I happened to find some of those threads bigoted but others may not. All religion is questioning and down to interpretation. And I don't think I would be erroneously accused of racism because my opinion is, as stated, it is not my religion and they are not my ideologies so I do not say that something like wearing a burka is right or wrong. And that was my point: who were those people to say that wearing a burka is wrong if they are not of that religious persuasion?

I saw a woman wearing pyjamas and a dressing gown in Asda at lunchtime accompanied by a child also in pyjamas and a dressing gown not long back and that was infinitely more odd and questionable than seeing somebody in a burka but you don't see things like that being questioned on here.

thefuture

Are you seriously comparing the issue of women covering up their face and bodies to prevent men desiring or raping them with a woman and child dressed in PJS in public.

You are an apologist for mysoginistic and hateful practises that see women as sex objects and to be hidden away and men as potential beasts who can't control their sexual desires.

Do you defend page 3 too?

Exactly the same dodgy thinking.

I hope, OP, that you are very young and have not seen much of the world as your posts are troubling.

I won't be contributing again to this threaad.

Sorry that post may have seemed a personal attack on you but honestly can any feminist really defend the burkha?

Not the wearing of scarfs or trousers etc of course but the burkha seems to be particularly cruel invention by men for women.

Oh my goodness, where has this come from?! Not at all, I was simply making the point if somebody wears a burka, in light of recent events, people on those earlier threads seemed to see people in burkas and tar them with the same brush as terrorists. The woman in pyjamas and dressing gown wore that and no one batted an eyelid. And do I defend Page 3? Of course I don't (!!!!) but I think you should distinguish between something that is enforced by religion and the choice of an individual. And please don't accuse me of being some sort of misogynist or whatever, I've never known anything so ridiculous in my life ... This thread has seriously been blown out of all proportion and has ended up as something it was never meant to be.

Of course a feminist can't defend a burka but you can defend a burka if you look at it from the perspective of it being religious dress. To those wearing the burka, I'm sure it is perfectly normal to them because such ideologies have been instilled into them. Again, this thread has been blown out of all proportion. It did seem like a bit of an attack but I'm certainly not going to take it as personal one because you've taken an original point, blown it out of all proportion and frankly, I don't know you so why would I think anything of such ridiculous accusations like being a misogynist or whatever else?!

No but one can defend a person's right to wear virtually any other forms of dress/undress. That is the effect of free choice and relativism. But free choice is always made within certain conditions that limit those choices. Prostitution is a case in point. Do feminists criticise individual women and their choices? Nope.

If I'm happy to defend women wearing pj's in tesco I must be prepared to defend a woman wearing a burka in Asda. I don't have to accept the structural and ideological, cultural or political and economic structures that shape those choices.

I think op is being given a tough time here for some reason.

Olivepip59 My posts were certainly never meant to be "troubling". I started a thread in support of those of the Muslim faith who seem to have been tarred with the same brush as terrorists by people on earlier threads. My genuine message of love for people, regardless of race, religion and horror at what I saw on here earlier, which was really just hateful, has been taken, twisted and blown out of all proportion. And please don't accuse me of being immature or whatever you were edging at with your comment, I simply started what I expected to be a pleasant thread and it has been turned into something else completely, which is not my fault.

Thank you MiniTheMinx ... Jesus Christ, ever wish you hadn't bothered?!

To whoever seems to be up in arms over what was simply only ever supposed to be a message of support to those who were being slammed for their religious dress on here earlier, there are absolutely no words.

you can defend a burka if you look at it from the perspective of it being religious dress
NOPE
the full covering is a symbol of oppression.
If it was religious then men would wear it.

And the fact that male Saudi relatives of the 9/11 bombers were smuggled out of the US wearing them to evade justice is another reason they have no place in a civilised society.

THey were not worn in Iran before the revolution.
THEy are political, not religious.

thefuture I suggest you enter "supermarket pyjamas" into the search box. You will find quite a few threads discussing this matter.....

kesstrel That is terrifying, I must be from another planet! I don't I will bother looking it up, onesies were bad enough ...

The burka is not political it's cultural

I suspect that some would say bikinis should not be worn in a civilised country.

And are you saying that the middle east is all uncivilised?

Who gets to decide what civilised is? Can it be defined in ways that do not smack of superiority and bigotry?

The burka is not political it's cultural
It wasn't the culture before the late 70's

I suspect that some would say bikinis should not be worn in a civilised country.
Down the high street, absolutely not.
On the beach, absolutely yes

Full Niqab means kids at the playground have to hope that they recognise their mother's shoes as they cannot see her face as she talks to them

Yes but how can we define civilised in a way that is not superior imperialist and racist?

Yes but how can we define civilised in a way that is not superior imperialist and racist?
Start by treating all people with equal rights : men, women, left handed, gay, blonde, whatever

which means the end of segregation and discrimination on the grounds of sex, race, age, colour

you know, daft things like allowing women to vote and drive cars and not be stoned to death for adultery
and equal divorce rights for men and women
and education not based around parental religion

countries that get the most out of the most of their workforce do the best

that is why those from less open countries flock to them