To throw away the landlord's shit in the loft?

[MuttonWasAGoose]

We've just moved in to a nice house. The landlady mentioned that the loft was partly boarded out and that they'd left "a couple of boxes in the very back that we couldn't reach."

I just went to stow some things and pretty most of the boarded out space is full of their stuff. It's about a dozen or so cartons of crap. Mostly toys and holiday decorations.

None of this is on the inventory. I'd like to use that space for our empty suitcases, camping gear, etc. There's already a large shed full of their stuff that I grudgingly accept we can't use. But the loft situation annoys me.

DH feels it would be wrong to empty the loft. I have been in this situation before (previous landlord was much, much worse and I did throw everything away.) I just have no patience for this. I think it's infantile to be unable to take responsibility for your belongings. If they can't be bothered to move it, or even inventory it, then they clearly can't really care about it.

The first carton I looked in had what was clearly a well-loved child's teddy. Even I don't have the heart to toss that. But what about the other stuff?

It's not her property but the space within the property IS hers, temporarily. Or would you all like only part of the space in your owned lofts?

lumela I think breaking a lock is absolutely not on. The tenant should have asked for the loft to be emptied (and if the contract stipulated loft not included, then too bad for the tenant!) There was another house for rent with a big garage and it stipulated that the garage was not included. So we never even viewed it. It was otherwise a rather small house. The garage would have perhaps made it viable. We've noticed that it's still on the market so I guess other people feel similarly.

Vocational - as it so happens, this agreement doesn't include a deposit (first and last month's rent, instead.) However, if there were a deposit and I were to throw out stuff not on the inventory, I would still get the deposit back. That's because the onus is on the landlord to prove that there was damage. Not on inventory = doesn't exist.

About all I want is to be able to stay here long term. I'll see how it goes regarding the shed and the loft - she what she does - and then decide what is best for us. I suppose she could just drag it out a very long time. If we get nasty (and this could include driving it to her place and leaving it) then I guess she'll still boot us out. So, if she doesn't clear it I guess we'll start looking at the end of the tenancy and do whatever we like.

I do think it's illegal to throw things away. I know that is the case with tenants leaving belongings. I would imagine the same rules, based on the same logic, applies.

I totally understand why you're angry op. It's weird that she's left do much stuff behind. It's very annoying that you've got much less storage space that she led you to believe.

Of note, if you think tenants get a raw deal in the UK, do try renting elsewhere - the difference is astonishing.

True - I was stunned by Germany, in particular. Long term tenancies are normal, as is redecorating. It's all set up on the assumption that renting isn't shameful or 'lower class', but quite normal. My SIL is German, and she was stunned when she came over here.

SHE can call the police and have you charged with theft if you just chuck it.

Of course she can't.

I would love options for long term tenancy like in Germany. I would have no problem paying for repairs/decoration if I had the security of knowing I wouldn't be asked to leave a few months later.

There is so much misinformation on this thread. I'm a LL. I'd say anything that I leave behind in a property that isn't on the inventory is fair game. YANBU OP.

I know that I can get away with throwing shit away. About all she can do is not renew the lease. The tricky thing is - if I write to her then I've officially acknowledged that it's here and since it's not mine I probably can't throw it away. I know that landlords can't dispose of goods left by tenants. They have to give notice (generally 21 days.) I'm pretty sure that the law would work the same way in this direction: give notice that it's going to be removed, specify that if it's not collected then the goods will be discarded.

This is not the sort of relationship I want with my LL.

I'd rather she wanted to come and remove it.

Well, yes OP, it would be deeply unreasonable to throw out your landlord's stuff. You seem to have agreed that it would be unreasonable though, and that you should speak to your LL, so fair enough.

I'm absolutely agog though at the posts that suggest that LL is doing the OP a favour, and that the OP is a guest in LL's home. Sorry, did I miss the OP saying that LL is generously allowing them to live there free of charge? Er, no.

We rent our house. It belongs to the LL, but it is our home. Not theirs. We pay to live in it, to use the space. Would you buy a pair of trousers and think that the salesperson should be able to come and borrow them whenever they wish because they were kind enough to sell them to you?

I'm really astonished at this thread. When I rented in Germany in the 80s the rents were fair and there was nothing from the landlord left in the flat, even though it was furnished.

My next encounter with renting was with DS1 renting at uni. Unbelievable. He's just been told that his very expensive rent doesn't cover the garden which is unusable and full of rubbish. The landlord turns up unannounced and expects to be let in. Luckily, through reading threads on here, I know she's not allowed to do this, so she won't be doing that again.

In this country I think tenants have a raw deal.

It's bloody outrageous that anyone renting out a house leaves anything behind (i.e. garage, loft, cellar all out of bounds and unusable to a tenant).

We were looking at renting a few years ago and came across this scenario. As soon as the EA said the loft and cellar were locked, we left and didn't look any further. I think it's appalling for LLs to use it as personal storage space, regardless of whether they own the property or not. It ceases to become their home as soon as it's rented out.

We bought a house 10 years ago and the previous occupants left a shed full of old tools and things in the loft. After a year or two I went through it all and chucked the rusty and unidentifiable and clearly ruined things out. Shortly afterwards, they sent friends of theirs 150 miles to collect it after contacting us (they had moved to Australia in the meantime). When their friends turned up, they were furious that they'd been asked to come with a trailer to collect rotten old coffee tables and the remaining rusty tools. It's just bloody rude, frankly.

mutton, I dunno if this helps, but this is what I'd send (as an email/letter):

'Dear LL,

I am writing to confirm what we should do about some belongings left in the house. The loft contains [x number] of boxes, which seem to contain Christmas decorations and toys. My memory is that you said you could not reach these, and so left them behind when you moved. Since the inventory does not include these items and does not indicate the loft space is inaccessible, we have made plans for this space [you will need here to have read your agreement - if it just does not mention the loft space, obviously, it is part of the house and so included]. Would you like to collect these items? If so, we could arrange to be in on [date and time] or [date and time], but we do need the space quite soon, and realise you may simply want us to dispose of these items.'

That is formal enough, but if they reply with a shocked 'no, keep them, we need them', then you can explain what the tenancy agreement says.

Btw, this reminds me of the cheekiest LL I ever had.

We looked round a property, only to be told the books on the shelves and the candles in the candlesticks were included in the inventory! It was down to 'vase, with peacock feather' and linen in the cupboards.

We eventually got the lettings agency to accept we needed to put it all out of the way, and packed it into the loft, which we didn't need - fuming all the while, but we loved the house and wanted to move in. I still cannot believe the cheeky buggers, but they'd done it by the book and put it on an inventory, so we just had to decide whether to sign, or to give up on a place we really wanted.

I've rented properties like that, Jeanne - little decorative perfume bottles on the dresser, etc - all inventoried. We popped it all in boxes straight away and put them back when we moved out.

A couple of people have objected to my calling these things "shit" and "crap." The fact is, most of our personal belongings would just be somebody else's junk. Obviously, that grubby and threadbare teddy is or was something very precious to someone. But it's just a dirty rag to anyone else.
Regardless, if someone can't be bothered to move it and care for it themselves, they can't care too much about it, can they?

Just phone. Or board a bit more of the loft. You sound infantile to me that you can't approach this like an adult. Why should she have to give every square inch to you? Bet the loft wasn't advertised as useable space when you rented. It is an added bonus if you get to use the only bit of house storage left to a landlord. We moved to another country but left three boxes in the loft (books and my childhood toys). We moved to another country ffs and might move back to that house, who ay thousands to pointlessly move sentimental stuff? I'd go apeshit if our tenants threw them out with no warning whatsoever, it's callous.

Haven't RTT, but check your contract for any reference to the loft. It may not be included in your tenancy agreement - we let out our house once and the attic was not for the tenant's use - standard wording of the letting agent's contract.

TheOddity - but, presumably you told your tenants the loft was out of bounds?

That is very different.

What's not on is to ask someone to pay for space, then not let them use it - which is the OP's situation.

The loft space in a house is important storage space, and if you've paid to rent it, it should be accessible, shouldn't it?

As mutton has just said, if LL put these things on inventory, of course we'd box them up and store them, but it the LL has not done that, then it is not fair to expect tenants to act as charity storage spaces, is it?

Surely, unless the loft is specifically excluded, in the lease, it is perfectly reasonable for the tenant to assume that it is theirs to use, TheOddity?

Of course it is, SDTG.

It's not unheard of for LL to exclude the loft, but I'd say it is quite unusual, surely?

Damned cheek to use space that someone else is paying for to store your crap, whether it's sentimental to you or not. There are storage units for such things - you can pay weekly or monthly. Why on earth would you expect someone else to caretake your stuff and pay for the privilege?!!

And yes I could have locked the loft as they never asked about its use but I preferred to act like a human being and trust that they'd use that access for their other things as there was still plenty of space.. Also left gardening stuff in the shed univentoried and accessible. Again, because most normal people who rent may not have had gardens previously or own their own lawnmower. As a tenant, I know I was glad things like that were left.

If you don't specify on the contract that some of the house is off-limits, then it's not off-limits. Every inch of space in this house is ours to use for the duration of our tenancy.

Not only did she not exclude the loft, she specifically mentioned that it was partly boarded out and said that there were "a couple of boxes way in the back that we couldn't reach." I don't know if she was mistaken or if her definition of unreachable is different from mine (as well as of what "a couple" means) but I encountered a nearly full loft with relatively little usable space.

I wouldn't have cared if there had literally been "a couple of boxes out of reach." I maybe would have rolled my eyes a little because I think it's irresponsible to leave them. They haven't moved out of country - just to the other side of town. And even if you do move overseas temporarily, you can't just assume that it's OK to leave things. Sort your shit or otherwise take responsibility for them. This can include designating a discrete area - preferably closed off - as not part of the tenancy agreement.

As for the gardening tools - if they were useful for the property and they were inventoried, you're not unreasonable to leave them. To just assume that the tenant wants to take care of them and move in around them is stupid.

Sort your shit or otherwise take responsibility for them.

This^. I'm not sure why anyone would be arrogant enough to assume otherwise. Too many entitled people these days.