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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

to not send my girls on this school trip because of my beliefs

942 replies

JustGiveMeTwoMinutes · 13/11/2015 16:39

The trip is to a mosque and the girls (year 3 and 4) have to cover their heads with a scarf, the boys don't have to.

Just to be clear about where I am coming from, this is about a specific practice which I believe is discriminatory and therefore disagree with. I would not choose myself to enter a building that I could only enter if I wore particular clothes but where that requirement was limited to one gender or one group defined by arbitrary characteristics. I would be happy to cover my head as a sign of respect/tradition if everyone entering the building was required to do so.

They can make their own decision on this when they are adults.

Am I being ridiculous and petty or is it reasonable to stand up for my view that just because a custom is part of a religion that does not excuse it being discriminatory?

OP posts:
ghostyslovesheep · 13/11/2015 18:25

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TheLeavesAreTurningBrown · 13/11/2015 18:25

Pre pubescent girls are not required to cover their hair

YUK ^ thats even worse!
Are they going to be checked and asked if they are menstruating yet!!!

Moreshabbythanchic · 13/11/2015 18:26

I think OP should find out whose instruction it is for the girls to cover their heads. If, as previous posters have said, pre-pubescent girls don't need to cover up then the teacher may have made a mistake. If it was the Imam then its certainly discriminating against non muslim girls to order them to cover up. So, discrimination for being girls and also for not being muslim.

Mummamayhem · 13/11/2015 18:29

I haven't mentioned choice but I stand by respect and fear of difference. You might let your daughter wear a bikini but perhaps not to a Christian church.

Our British culture is massively focused on women's appearance..and very sexualised it could be argued that this is even less respectful of the expectations placed on women.

Vagina first? Really? High heels, make up? Revealing clothes and pressure about looks of from a young age...respectful??

TheLeavesAreTurningBrown · 13/11/2015 18:31

I see it as respecting tradition. I don't agree with girls being treated differently but it's not like she is converting to a religion. She is there to observe, learn and reflect

Hmm

Oh yes...tradition. One can just imagine them saying in the old South and In South Africa, " Come on, go and sit over there in the area marked 'black' please its just respecting, tradition, don't make a fuss its educational for you" Hmm

NKFell · 13/11/2015 18:33

I went on a school trip to a Mosque at Primary School and I didn't have to cover my head- we listened to an Imam talk about what his religion meant to him and he explained certain practices. It was fun and it was good.

You should definitely find out who has said they'd have to cover their heads- I can't imagine a Mosque welcoming enough to have a non Muslim school trip would be so strict for children. Doesn't sound right to me.

Hatethis22 · 13/11/2015 18:33

I'm heading towards 40 and have yet to find anywhere that requires you to wear a bikini and high heels to go in.

TheLeavesAreTurningBrown · 13/11/2015 18:35

I've worn hijab for over 10 years, I've never had any problems with Muslims men and if you didnt wear it the same men would be respectful to you I suppose.

Mummamayhem · 13/11/2015 18:35

For what it's worth I wouldn't let my daughter attend a 'skirts only' school nor a school which is church aided. This is my decision about how she is raised. I wouldn't however be afraid of a one off learning experience.

Wouldn't it be better she thought and learnt about the issue and perhaps came to a conclusion that is likely to be the same as yours?

Hatethis22 · 13/11/2015 18:36

They're also two sides of the same coin. Focusing on the appearance of women, whether the pressure is to show skin or cover it, reduces us to objects.

Finallyonboard · 13/11/2015 18:36

I've been to a mosque but they didn't ask anyone to cover their head. We ALL had to remove our shoes though! I learnt much during the visit and I feel that it was positive for all involved.

stardusty5 · 13/11/2015 18:37

I agree with the posters who say to let them go and experience it for themselves. Why shield them from it? Maybe they will come back from it feeling as strongly as you do about equality.

captainfarrell · 13/11/2015 18:37

Has your dd been on a trip to a Christian church yet? It's always so important to learn about faiths other than the traditional faith of the country in which we live.

FlowersAndShit · 13/11/2015 18:39

What do all religions have in common? Misogyny.That should tell you all you need to know.

EnaSharplesHairnet · 13/11/2015 18:39

I'd let them go and then discuss it.

girlguide123 · 13/11/2015 18:39

it's not just mosques where heads may ask to be covered - a Sikh Gurdwara would be the same along with churches in some catholic countries. I've placed a scarf over my hair in quite a few different religious buildings and have always felt it's worth it and the visit has been interesting.

I think it is unreasonable to stop your child from going, but she is your child and it is your call.

cailindana · 13/11/2015 18:40

'High heels, make up? Revealing clothes and pressure about looks of from a young age...respectful??'

When would a school ask girls to wear high heels and makeup for a trip? I never said any other culture was any more respectful of women and I agree with you entirely that there is misogyny everywhere. I don't see how that's an excuse to go along with this particular version of misogyny however.

ChunkyPickle · 13/11/2015 18:40

In my experience, the dress standards for women at a place where men have to wear suits are just as onerous.

I've worked more than one place where style of women's suit was specified, and during which parts of the year I was allowed/expected to wear tights.

Personally, I don't think there's an issue with you taking a stand on this (if indeed they're expecting the girls to cover their heads). Respect should go both ways, and being forced to cover my head when men aren't is not respect.

VestalVirgin · 13/11/2015 18:41

Someone mentioned swimming lessons a few pages ago.

I wore trunks in the swimming lessons at school in second grade or so. Some girls complained I should cover my chest,which was totally flat back then. But teachers didn't try to stop me ... I think my mother would have given them a piece of her mind.

Nowadays I cover up because I know men would ogle me. It's shitty, but I don't want to give sexist men something to drool about.
I totally intend to go topless when I am 80 and really wrinkly. :P

From my point of view, this mosque visit is a bit like visiting Saudi Arabia. You can do it for the sake of education, and submit yourself to their oppression while you are there, but you can also choose not to do it because you don't want to support their shitty attitudes. In which case it is safer to not go there.

Respect for other religions is boys covering their head in a synagogue. (We visited one and were told that the old Jewish ladies usually wear a headscarf, but it was not a requirement.)

Allegedly Islam nowhere requires a headscarf, just "appropriate clothes" or something, so that's not about religion, it is about culture.

And some cultural things just don't deserve respect. (Same with some aspects of religions)

bettyberry · 13/11/2015 18:42

I wouldn't allow my DD into any organisation that was so blatantly sexist

What a ridiculous statement! You will have a bloody hard job finding an organisation in the UK that isn't sexist!

In this country we have so many instances of women being demoted, treated poorly, missing out on promotions, bonuses just for having a baby. Men who become fathers do not miss out on those bonuses.
Women being asked about their reproductive status above their abilities to do their job.
Shops targeting kids with gendered toys. Girls get pink, frilly and nurturing toys and boys get blue, action, outdoorsy toys that play up to gender stereotypes that state women should be meek housewives and boys confident action heroes.
Women being consistently paid LESS than their male counterparts who have the exact same skills.
In almost every organisation in this country the top jobs never reflect the population as a whole. So few women are CEOs.
So few women are keynote speakers at conferences.
Women are not encouraged into STEM careers and when they do make it many are subject to sexist comments/abuse.
It is only very recently that female priests have been allowed to progress higher up in the church. Many men are still vocal about how wrong they think that is.
The sun only this year 'scrapped' page 3 although they still put semi naked women all through it :(
Then there's the gender stereotypes in writing. Look at the types of novels published in the UK with male writers vs female writers.
The comments made towards the female candidates in the Labour leadership campaign.
That female single parents are feckless, uneducated, only did it for a council house yet male single parents are praised for being 'brave'. Family law itself is very sexist.
The fact we had a bloody petition and a woman received repeated rape threats just because she believed we should have another female face on our own currency.
Told we are useless and unable to compete/make decisions because we have periods.
The fact our fecking tampons and towels are classed as luxury items.

I could go on

bloody hell. Sexist issues are everywhere and kicking up a fuss over one instance when visiting a mosque (because covering your head is considered a respectful act) yet seemingly ignoring the day to day sexism we allow our own children to witness every single day without doing a damn thing is a bit hypocritical.

girlguide123 · 13/11/2015 18:45

it's only a visit - how long will it last, half a day at the very most? it's bound to be interesting.

cailindana · 13/11/2015 18:46

'Sexist issues are everywhere and kicking up a fuss over one instance when visiting a mosque (because covering your head is considered a respectful act) yet seemingly ignoring the day to day sexism we allow our own children to witness every single day without doing a damn thing is a bit hypocritical.'

The logic here is weird. I agree sexist issues are everywhere but I don't get why that means the OP should just accept this version of sexism? And how do you know the OP doesn't do things to combat sexism elsewhere?

Mummamayhem · 13/11/2015 18:48

Hatethis22 that is my point exactly, there is little difference.

And yes there is enormous pressure on women - young particularly, to look 'hot' in bikinis on the beach, to wear heels to look 'sexy' in a club....how many celebrities do you see on the red carpet in trainers with no make up on? Despite your grand age perhaps the expectations on women in the UK are so engrained you haven't noticed? Different expectations but expectations all the same.

And this is not making a decision about the girls future religion, beliefs or life is it? She can come out and remove said head scarf as she is fortunate to live in the UK.

MyFavouriteClintonisGeorge · 13/11/2015 18:49

I can't help thinking that letting them go, with scarves, and having a good discussion about the covering rules before and after might be a more fruitful approach than not letting them go.

Your daughters are going to come across appearance rules for women, and their unfairness, more and more as they get older. It is better to talk about it critically, and an experience like covering up to go to a mosque with boys who don't have to is a good starting point for doing so.

cailindana · 13/11/2015 18:49

'And yes there is enormous pressure on women - young particularly, to look 'hot' in bikinis on the beach, to wear heels to look 'sexy' in a club....how many celebrities do you see on the red carpet in trainers with no make up on? Despite your grand age perhaps the expectations on women in the UK are so engrained you haven't noticed? Different expectations but expectations all the same.

And this is not making a decision about the girls future religion, beliefs or life is it? She can come out and remove said head scarf as she is fortunate to live in the UK.'

Again I find the logic here bizarre. Why be so fatalistic as to say 'there's sexism everywhere, why fight it?' Why not say 'actually I won't have this form of sexism thanks'