to not send my girls on this school trip because of my beliefs

[JustGiveMeTwoMinutes]

The trip is to a mosque and the girls (year 3 and 4) have to cover their heads with a scarf, the boys don't have to.

Just to be clear about where I am coming from, this is about a specific practice which I believe is discriminatory and therefore disagree with. I would not choose myself to enter a building that I could only enter if I wore particular clothes but where that requirement was limited to one gender or one group defined by arbitrary characteristics. I would be happy to cover my head as a sign of respect/tradition if everyone entering the building was required to do so.

They can make their own decision on this when they are adults.

Am I being ridiculous and petty or is it reasonable to stand up for my view that just because a custom is part of a religion that does not excuse it being discriminatory?

Absolutely. You can see the same if you look at FLDS and LDS in the USA each claiming to be the true faither and my teenagers studying the Reformation for history in the sixth form must surely make comparisons too.

All we can say is that those who become radical tend to be the worst of the lot but all the religions are deluded, believing in invented Gods. I suppose if your radicalism were simply never squashing an insect or praying alone in your convent and not seeing anyone less harm is done than if you see your cause to kill.

If we can just concentrate on ensuring all the religions treat men and women the same and fairly and women are not discriminated against at home or at work we would make a good start. If Islam ensured men covered their heads and bodies and if they cannot control their sexual urges if they see an ankle therefore stay at home minding the children unless out accompanied by a female minder things might improve a bit.

I think that if you are brought up to see one group as 'less' in some way then that sets up a general ability to see certain groups as less. This itself leads to the mental thought processes that can lead to seeing those groups as the enemy.

So discriminating against women does a disservice to all humanity.

The older I get the more I think that religion only actually ever existed in order to repress, opress and subjugate women.

As in, the oppression of women is the whole basis of every religion on the planet, rather than being an unfortunate side effect.
Especially on reading that very interesting post about Abyssyrian women and the veil.
Is there something deep in men that can't deal with autonomous female sexuality that needs to create whole religious belief systems to control it? Because the more you look into it, the more every religion seems to hang on the idea that women are dirty and men are godly.
Is it because paternity could be in question whereas maternity can't? Is it because we have better orgasms? I mean, what?? Because the astonishing atrocities committed against women in the name of religion (Islam is currently the frontrunner) has got to be fuelled by some really deep rooted psychological fuckery.
I used to be all "how nice to experience other cultures" but now I feel quite militantly anti all religion. They can all go and fuck themselves.

only actually ever existed in order to repress, opress and subjugate women

and society in general dont forget,

an illiterate and un educated population going to church every sunday are putty in hands of local vicar/priest who can say what they want....

feudal.

this is how islam seems to be able to whip up hate against cartoons etc, like the father of the school girls who went to Syria..he didnt seem educated and is probably manipulated by immams somewhere ( he said he didnt know his girls were radicalised and had no idea they went to syria and he blamed the police, then footage emerged of him, a face full hate burning flags at a rally)

Its why I think education is so vital. Someone mentioned philosophy should be compulsory in all schools and I agree! Encourage children to question everything!

ifnot

Its hard not to agree. On another thread a few things cropped up re divorce in different religions and it was shocking to read.

Its also why we must keep fighting to keep and enable women to be free in the UK.

Whatever my own views on all organised religions I think it's my duty to give my children some understanding of the positive aspects of the faith of others, so I tone down any disapproval tbh.

My parents were non-religious but we lived in an area with a fair few devout neighbours and a long standing sectarian divide. They pretty much got on with everyone which was an achievement.

The notion of showing respect for another's religious belief was drummed into us. My parents would say privately as we grew older that they thought certain things unfair or wrong but end it with "but that's their belief". This is only applicable to situations up until the law is broken of course.

Whatever my own views on all organised religions I think it's my duty to give my children some understanding of the positive aspects of the faith of others, so I tone down any disapproval tbh

I agree to an extent, but its also a two way street. Ie people who follow relgion to respect people who choose not too.

You can only lead by example on it.

No. Sorry. No. I don't respect religious beliefs, simply because "that's their beleif". I can tolerate innocuous religious beliefs that don't impact anyone, but I will not respect the beleif that women's heads need to be covered because they are less than men, or that they cannot enter into a place of worship if they are menstruating, anymore than I would respect the belief of someone who thought Emu was real and Rod Hull was the puppet.
I wouldn't do anything to anyone, I wouldn't point and laugh at them, or be rude to their face, but I reserve my respect for things that are worthy of it.
Too many people have suffered and died for "beliefs".

I have had to actually agree with my boyfriend to not talk about this subject anymore, because he is a believer (in a moderate sense) and I am just so damn angry now, I don't want to fall out with him!

ena I think the majority do in the UK and Muslims have said so, esp in comparison to many countries where such freedoms are curtailed.

Its a two way street and Muslim communities also need to be accepting and open as well.

Too many British Muslims grow up without really knowing anyone from a different background; without understanding or empathising with the lives and beliefs of others. And too many British people have never befriended a Muslim’

Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3325538/I-worry-daughters-groomed-ISIS-lured-Syria-warns-Labour-s-candidate-London-Mayor-Sadiq-Khan.html#ixzz3s2FsmHrk
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I reserve my respect for things that are worthy of it
Same here.
At LEGOLAND this summer, sweltering day, family where the dad and boys were in a teeshirt and shorts- ie comfortable gear, the mother in heavy veil, long black robes.
Utter contempt for that.

justgiveme is this not happening about Islam anyway?they are seen as lesser,backward,their beliefs not worthy of respect.i think contempt toward someone else's choice should not come from any side.and I fail to see how a scarf on someone's head is affecting other people.many posters have said they wouldn't mind if the others beliefs were not affecting anyone else...but this doesn't work if it about something Muslims do?

I fail to see how a scarf on someone's head is affecting other people

The whole premise of veiling is so women don't arouse men, so ironically the whole matter is all about how the scarf does / does not affect other people.

Also why is it mandatory in Saudi & Iran to veil if whether a woman chooses or doesn't choose to observe hijab have no affect others ?

they are seen as lesser,backward,their beliefs not worthy of respect Any ideology that doesn't treat all people as equal regardless of gender, religion or race IS lesser, backward and not worthy of respect.

many posters have said they wouldn't mind if the others beliefs were not affecting anyone else But veiling does affect others. Un-covered women are seen as immodest.

Saudi doesn't impose the covering of the head.also ,people always seem to forget about the other many Muslim countries where no one bats a eyelid at bikinis,shorts etc.like if Saudi and Iran were the only Muslim countries.the veil does affect other people because they think the veil symbolises the oppression of women,and the only reason behind it is not to arouse men.it actually symbolises modesty and obeying God,even tho you don't think it does.whatnother people choose to wear (it is a choice,even if it's easier for some to believe it's forced or a result of brainwash) it's none of anyone else's business.feeling sorry for someone queuing in Legoland for wearing a veil...oh please!i see plenty of shorts and vest wearing women still sweating in hot weather.after all ,those living in hot countries are not usually going around half naked/but cover with wear loose fitting clothes.

Anyone is free to disagree,as I disagree with those who don't believe.still I'm never rude toward their opinion and beliefs,and expect the same.if you want respect ,you need to give respect too.

Saudi doesn't impose the covering of the head.also ,people always seem to forget about the other many Muslim countries where no one bats a eyelid at bikinis,shorts etc

Actually, yes it does. And I have seen girls of 9 years old be beaten on the skull and shoulders by religious police for a slipped abayah.

It imposes all sorts of other things too.

I have been to school, worked and travelled extensively in Muslim countries and, other than in areas reserved exclusively for westerners and expats, have never seen this 'blind eye.'

I have seen reactions from spitting, cat calling, following, finding, demanding sex to outrage and lectures to cover up and leave.

There is absolutely the 'respect the culture of the country you are in' argument.

Blind eye? No. Which country did you mean out of interest?

Saudi doesn't impose the covering of the head Doesn't it ? How comes every woman there is covered and uncovered ones get admonished (often physically) by the muttawa (religious police) ?

Why were 15 schoolgirls prevented from leaving their burning building due to not being covered and instead were left to die ?
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm

where no one bats a eyelid at bikinis,shorts etc Other than a few select beach resorts, can you name any Muslim country where a woman can freely wander through the majority of the country wearing shorts or a skirt above the knee without being abused or sexually harassed ?

it actually symbolises modesty and obeying God,even tho you don't think it does God told you to conceal your awrah so that men were not tempted and led astray. Many of us object to being responsible for mens behaviour and also to regarding all men as sex addicts with no control.

To my knowledge men and women are supposed to dress modestly, there is no mention of covering the head.

Funnily enough its the Bible not the Koran that says about covering the head.

MistressMia epic cross post and how lovely to read your sense and knowledgeable perspective as ever.

Hope all is well and peaceful with you.

YABU. Its called showing respect to a different religion who happen to have different rules for the two sexes. Headwear is not a massive deal is it?

The older I get the more I think that religion only actually ever existed in order to repress, opress and subjugate women.

Agree 100%!!!!

Faith is lovely thing to have.

Organised religion is predominately used as a tool to oppress and repress.

I don't believe you OP. My DD went to a Mosque on a visit 5 years ago, she didn't have to wear a headscarf. I would have approved even she was required to do so. The more understanding we have of each other the better!