to not send my girls on this school trip because of my beliefs

[JustGiveMeTwoMinutes]

The trip is to a mosque and the girls (year 3 and 4) have to cover their heads with a scarf, the boys don't have to.

Just to be clear about where I am coming from, this is about a specific practice which I believe is discriminatory and therefore disagree with. I would not choose myself to enter a building that I could only enter if I wore particular clothes but where that requirement was limited to one gender or one group defined by arbitrary characteristics. I would be happy to cover my head as a sign of respect/tradition if everyone entering the building was required to do so.

They can make their own decision on this when they are adults.

Am I being ridiculous and petty or is it reasonable to stand up for my view that just because a custom is part of a religion that does not excuse it being discriminatory?

I don't think I can easily answer so many questions that simply don't reflect the day to day life I live in. I'm sorry.
Being sarcastic, All Catholics should not have sex before marriage. Is that so in the real world hmmmmm no.
All Moslems will behave in a certain way, again this isn't true, people are people and this should be respected.
Go view anything on YouTube as that is your choice but please demonstrate a modicum of intelligence by not presuming all are influenced as you are!!.
How ridiculously bizarre to suggest that all Muslims are ready to fight, shame on you!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And er don't have a clue where I said butchery and depravity was OK, so just do one !!!!!!m

No compromise no headscarf. Sounds a bit like my local school on a visit to to the hospital where girls got a 'nurse whatever' badge and boys got the 'doctor whatever' badge - despite the fact there are only two qualified doctors amongst the parents - erm both female

Your western freedom??how arrogant,the belief that only westners have freedom.not freedom for others to wear/believe what they like tho?

It's your 'western freedom' too, Whattheuh, that veil wearers are pissing on.

I see hijab as something a practicing Muslim woman usually wear.not something that fundamentalist wear
Right.

And yet, in the decades before the radical, foaming-at-the-mouth Wahhabis got rich from oil revenues in Saudi Arabia and started building mosques all over the world and 'educating' and sponsoring fundamentalist sheikhs and imams worldwide, the idea that a practicing Muslim woman should be veiled was not exactly a popular one in the west or in more economically advanced parts of the Muslim world, or those that had cultures that were western looking.

Mmmmcake, you have missed the point.

The war in question was one of aggression, whereas Churchill's was not..

Math I personally think all war is based on aggression. Just my opinion

You probably should study a little history then.

I think it is the norm for young women to dress this way in order to put themselves out there in order to be chatted up.

And having posted that do you expect anyone to take a single thing you have written seriously

Talkin
To answer your question - all the Muslims I know and plenty around the world have utterly condemned the Paris attacks. There are over 1bn Muslims in the world clearly the vast majority of them are not running around waging holy war.

As for wars of aggression, British history is littered with them Suez recently, the Opium wars & a lot of the wars linked to the formation and retention of the British Empire. Britain may not have been fighting holy war but we did have a belief that we were permitted to invade and subdue countries to impose our version of civilisation on them.

The 'oh but western girls get drunk and wear short skirts' argument is lazy, cliched and disingenuous but I will make a couple of observations.

If a young woman exercises her western right to go out on the lash, she may do so in the full knowledge that it is legal for her to be in the company of men.

She may wear what she chooses and drink alcohol which she can pay for with money she earns as she may work and have her own back account.

She is protected under equality law passed by a government for which, if she's over 18, she may have voted.

She can drive herself to meet her friends and it's legal for her to get a taxi alone should she choose to do so.

Should a man attack her, she will be looked after by police or hospital services who will treat her fairly and with dignity.

The law will protect, not condemn her, against the actions of a man who could not control himself.

They are vital freedoms. They also allow women to be educated, drive, travel, marry and divorce whom and when they choose, the list is long.

Those are the western freedoms some choose to scorn.

It is impossible to believe anyone would not want this, for ourselves and our daughters.

Round of applause Olivepip

I stand with women's right to dress & behave how they like - including short skirts/high heels/bovver boots/dungarees/a chicken suit. If women want to get pissed and pull a bloke then that is up to them - their life, their right to live it how they want.

Tolerance for religion is a good thing. But equality between the sexes is required, IMHO.

So saying to my girls that I don't want you going here as you will be treated sub standard to men is more important than the child experiencing being inside a mosque.

I think the school is quite out of order by going to a place where one group of students are going to be discriminated against. Whether it was a Catholic Church that wouldn't let gay people in unless they marked their appearance as different in some way or what if people with disabilities were expected to wear scarfs on their heads. It would be ridiculous and we wouldn't stand for that sort of discrimination. It makes me sad that so many people don't care half as much about discrimination against females.

Any females who willingly engage in the religion and willingly choose to cover the heads in a different matter and surely they should have the freedom to do this.

Well said Olive.

Also many many muslim women don't cover their head at all. The head scarf in increasing in its use as many muslims are choosing to embrace less equality and return to the dark ages. Increased use of it is is a bad not a good thing.

The British waged jihad in the crusades in the Middle Ages. It is not too hard to stir up the populace and get people out there. We even had a children's crusade. Thankfully we got more advanced and hopefully these radical muslims of whom there are sadly rather a lot will catch up in due course. A good starting point would be ensuring your children don't cover up.

Yes,it's not a choice in Iran,we got that.how about generally?it is a choice for many many women

Exactly. Choice is the word. In countries where it is an office to go uncovered how many women exactly do you think would choose to cover?

So in such countries where tbe leaders profess to be oh so 'proper' followers, women generally don't want it and see it as something repressive. They are beaten, harassed or jailed if they don't. How does that feel?

Choice is a great thing bit consider why women who have no choice feel thay way.

What a load of ignorant bollocks you talk mathanxiety

I would write a letter to the school letting them know that you trust them to treat all children equally, so you will be expecting either that no child will wear the hijab, or alternatively, that ALL children, boys and girls, will be wearing it. Actually, the latter would be the preferred one for me, as they would be making a statement without causing cultural offence.

RollerGirl the OP has looked into it further and the mosque do not require the girls to cover their heads.

The Mosque has already confirmed no scarf is needed the school got it wrong.

Ena - I didn't even notice this was at 3y pages before I posted.

I would let them go then, learning about religions is a good thing. I might touch upon whether they feel Islam or this particular mosque did treat women worse than men cos it would foster a good discussion and they will prob have a better insight than you after a day of visiting a mosque

Yes it's got lost a few pages back!

I've been to various churches cathedrals and mosques where I've had to cover my head. Men have to dress modestly too (though not cover head) and I've seen men refused entry for wearing shorts etc and not being covered up enough. I wouldn't have missed going into these beautiful buildings! With kids it would also give you an opportunity to discuss different values whether they think it's right or not for them to cover their head, whether they see why others do it etc (as well as discussing the buildings, history, religion of the visit etc). They could raise the question of the headscarf at the event rather than simply avoid it as an issue.

I think it'd be a bigger issue to miss out on this aspect of life in the UK not normally open to non Muslims. Just be relaxed and open minded, if you show your kids every day they're equal then one day won't hurt and should be cool experience. I'm not religious but I like going to buildings I mentioned above as they're beautiful and part of what others believe plus it's part of the history and politics that make up today. Not doubt they're being taught loaaads of stuff at school that won't accord with your beliefs anyway

Which churches require women's heads to be covered? Churches like St. Peter's in Rome or St. Mark's in Venice don't allow bare shoulders or short shorts but that applies to men and women. I've never been in a Christian church which demanded head covering.

The mosque doesn't require girls to cove their heads. The Koran doesn't require little girls to cover their head. the fact some more ignorant backward muslims do just shows they need to learn there is no such requirement and that the more forward thinking muslims who seek not to discriminate between men and women are right.

I think we have seen an uprise in more stricter form of Islam. I don't have a problem with the hijab and have friends who wear it but thinking about it, it is so commonplace now when it didn't use to be. Even the Niqab is becoming more common and some infant girls at school have just started wearing hijab where as before the children didn't. So it does look like Islam is turning stricter and harking back.

As others have said, Muslim countries had started to take on a more western outlook when looking at the likes of Iran Afghanistan and then it was crushed And awful restrictions forced on the populations, especially the women.

My friend was Muslim from a Muslim country (one often viewed as more Muslim lite), she left and lived a western life completely. She fell pregnant and wanted to go back to her country to be married with her family. She was at threat as she was pregnant and could be arrested. iF she drinks she can be arrested, imprisoned and lashed. She cannot just leave her religion though she left it long ago and never really practiced anyway.

My other non Muslim friends from the same country are concerned that they are seeing a rise in how Islam is being practiced and enforced. More women covering etc.

This seems to be the trend, I was in Turkey this year - been going for 25 years and even there I could see an increase in the amount of women wear a more formal Muslim dress and covering up.

I don't see that people can refute that in the past 50 odd years Islam is turning stricter and turning back to a more fundamental form. How this will play out and if it is a threat to freedoms we currently enjoy and expect - I don't know.