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AIBU?

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Original poster

to not send my girls on this school trip because of my beliefs

942 replies

JustGiveMeTwoMinutes · 13/11/2015 16:39

The trip is to a mosque and the girls (year 3 and 4) have to cover their heads with a scarf, the boys don't have to.

Just to be clear about where I am coming from, this is about a specific practice which I believe is discriminatory and therefore disagree with. I would not choose myself to enter a building that I could only enter if I wore particular clothes but where that requirement was limited to one gender or one group defined by arbitrary characteristics. I would be happy to cover my head as a sign of respect/tradition if everyone entering the building was required to do so.

They can make their own decision on this when they are adults.

Am I being ridiculous and petty or is it reasonable to stand up for my view that just because a custom is part of a religion that does not excuse it being discriminatory?

OP posts:
zzzzz · 13/11/2015 22:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mummamayhem · 13/11/2015 22:11

Lust worthy 7 year olds? That's a revolting assumption. Actually Muslims modest conservative dress is surely far less 'lust worthy' that the crop tops and mini skirts that are aimed at young children in Britain.

And no, I rarely see boys wearing school shorts in winter. Where I live there are a large number of primary schools, almost all have a skirt only policy - one state school even has a long skirt only rule. It's outrageous.

justgivemeamo · 13/11/2015 22:12

If you are conditioned to thinking women are second class and must defer to men and cover up in ways men don't have to you probably think you make a "choice" to do that but it's not really choice at all

^ of course.

Its hard to explain if you have not seen it.

I have met what I would call a brain washed Christian.

She lived in my home for a while on exchange thing.

Lovely girl, but every thing she did was connected back to God, every single little thing, her mother was a Sunday school teacher and she was quite simply brain washed. She had been at her mothers knee since she could remember teaching others about God.

VestalVirgin · 13/11/2015 22:15

@zzzzz: Reading comprehension? I never said that immigrants are more sexist. I just said we shouldn't add their sexist beliefs, whatever they are, to the ones that are already epidemic here.

Besides, I'm from Germany, so sorry, yes, most immigrants come from more sexist countries. We don't get many immigrants from Sweden or Iceland.

I never said it's just Muslim men. It's men. And I need not watch any propaganda for that. I can see it in everyday life.

Olivepip59 · 13/11/2015 22:15

vestal yes, it is insidious I agree.

I wanted to make a more exaggerated point. That the British desire to appear open minded and culturally inclusive is beginning to erode common sense and values of equality.

Let's say a school, in the interests of learning about many cultures decided to include Laddism (a traditional belief system with literature and history etc) and arranged a visit to a lap dancing club.

Let's say that, to demonstrate respect for the men (and women) who use this club, all the y3-4 girls were asked to wear heels, nipple tassels and crotchless pants.

Would anyone be here defending it as a wonderful and broad minded way to learn about other cultures and suggesting it was a small gesture of respect? That to refuse to do so was parochial and small minded and the whole experience should be seen in the context of broadening the cultural capital of those girls?

Why are we so keen to excuse and accept some sexism and not other kinds?

justgivemeamo · 13/11/2015 22:16

I also feel that if the aim is to promote better understanding between groups a party would be much more fun, and much more likely for young kids to promote harmony

But how can there be harmony when women are separated from the men and treated differently? And why should there be harmony?

BestZebbie · 13/11/2015 22:18

The trip is to a mosque and the girls (year 3 and 4) have to cover their heads with a scarf, the boys don't have to...... I would not choose myself to enter a building that I could only enter if I wore particular clothes but where that requirement was limited to one gender or one group defined by arbitrary characteristics.

Out of interest, do your girls wear skirts to school?

EnaSharplesHairnet · 13/11/2015 22:18

I know a few schools where the younger primary boys must wear shorts. Parents pay for the privilege, believe it or not !

All the girls in state schools here are allowed trousers. That was something there were school campaigns about in the 70s/80s.

VestalVirgin · 13/11/2015 22:20

@justgivemeamo: Exactly. If one wants to promote understanding, it would be much more advisable to find a mosque that doesn't ask girls to cover their heads. A progressive one. Where the progressive Muslims go. Because that's the ones we are likely to life in harmony with. Not the extremists.

justgivemeamo · 13/11/2015 22:21

do your girls wear skirts to school

Catholic school and NO. Our head said the first thing she did when she took over decades ago was to allow girls to wear trousers. I see girls all round here in skirts and trousers.

Now whether the boys are allowed to wear skirts I admit I dont know.

Original poster
JustGiveMeTwoMinutes · 13/11/2015 22:21

Some people have suggested I ring the mosque and I think I will. However the teacher said they were asked to wear the scarf 1 out of the 3 years they have been in the past. Reading one of the posts it appears 9 year olds, as some year 4s already are, is considered pubescent, so who knows, maybe they look at them and decide on the day.

The thing is I would be interested to visit a mosque and find out more about Islam and I believe visiting a place is much better than reading about it in books.

I will report back.

I don't get the swim suit analogy. They're just wearing the same as their same gender parent.

OP posts:
justgivemeamo · 13/11/2015 22:23

A progressive one. Where the progressive Muslims go

Yes! I totally agree and they do exist, and men and women are allowed to pray together.

This I would be most happy with.

justgivemeamo · 13/11/2015 22:24

Reading one of the posts it appears 9 year olds, as some year 4s already are, is considered pubescent, so who knows, maybe they look at them and decide on the day
never would i put my dc through this indignity

Mummamayhem · 13/11/2015 22:27

I'm so pleased you said OP that you yourself would like to visit and doing so is more informative than a book.

It seems you are being thoughtful. You've clearly sparked an interest on this thread! Hope it goes well.

Original poster
JustGiveMeTwoMinutes · 13/11/2015 22:29

Girls can wear trousers at our school

OP posts:
southernskies · 13/11/2015 22:32

The world will not change by living in silo's.

I live in a country where one of the cultures has some practices which appear quite sexist. But through my work and experience of that culture I have seen how formidable and strong the women of that group are.

They are game changers in our country and I have learn't a lot from them. I would not have done that if I had not engaged with them.

Mummamayhem · 13/11/2015 22:33

Yep but lots of parents seem to prefer impractical short skirts for reasons I can only assume are about how their DDs look/behave?

DotForShort · 13/11/2015 22:35

At Russian Orthodox churches in Russia, women and girls are asked to cover their heads, men and boys are asked to remove hats. When I'm in Russia, I wear a scarf if I want to visit a church. If I chose not to cover my head, I wouldn't enter the church. I personally think such rules are silly, but if I am a guest in someone else's house (so to speak), I would certainly respect the local customs.

It wasn't so long ago, historically speaking, that many girls and women wore hats to church as a matter of course in the UK. And I have a feeling that even now many in the UK would have no issue whatsoever with girls and women wearing scarves or hats to Christian churches.

Similarly, many people don't bat an eyelid about sending their daughters to schools that require girls to wear skirts or dresses. Or they might insist that their prepubescent daughters cover their chests when swimming. Oh, those things are just different, these people would say. Whereas I think it's far more ridiculous to put up with such absurdities than it is to wear a headscarf once on a school trip.

It's very obvious to me that many people object to the wearing of headscarves in this case simply because it is a visit to a mosque. "Indoctrination sessions" FGS. In the current climate of anti-Muslim sentiment, I would be very glad to send my daughters on such a school trip. More understanding is what we need, not more suspicion and manufactured outrage.

Jaxsbum · 13/11/2015 22:40

so OP (if you are still here) what do you do about swimming?
boys only have to wear trunks. yet girls wear swimming costumes??
so do you send you child in trunks?

Roonerspism · 13/11/2015 22:42

mumma what possible other reason is there to cover a child's hair then?

justgivemeamo · 13/11/2015 22:43

gosh, 60 dead in Paris, multiple attacks now, hostages been taken.

WarmCold · 13/11/2015 22:48

The most absurd and inequal practice i have seen in mainstream UK is that girls are expected to cover their breasts in a swimming pool. Can UK men not control themselves when they see women in their natural form?? Why cant women and girls wear trunks in the swimming pool? That strikes me as a bigger inequality than wearing a scarf.

Jaxsbum · 13/11/2015 22:49

not to the op. she is more worried in case her dd catch the religion

WarmCold · 13/11/2015 22:56

Why are educated women in this day and age, who fought so hard for equality, why are they allowing their dauhters to enter a building with such sexist rules. Why are the little girls being indoctrinated with messages that their chest/breasts must be covered, unlike their male counterparts who can swim happily baring all. What sort of a message are we giving our children?

ShamefulPlaceMarker · 13/11/2015 23:02

Yabu and ignorant

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