To think gender colour coded lucky dip is unacceptable?

[asharah]

Helping out with the PTA I discovered kids were being asked to bring in lucky dip prizes, wrapped pink for girls and blue for boys. I was really shocked. Surely our kids should be encouraged not to discriminate and play with all toys? When I shared my concern that this reinforced unhelpful gender stereotypes some parents came back saying they didn't want boys to be upset or teased for receiving pink fluffy toys, or vice versa? I've never come across gender separated lucky dip before, and encountered hundreds. Is it normal?

pickak

I said way back on the first page of the thread that when I run stuff like this I want it to be as simple as possible. And I never want to find myself to be in a situation where I have to say 'no, you can't have a go because you're a boy/girl and there's no blue/pink stuff left' (though I don't mind saying 'sorry everyone, all gone').

It's adding complication as well as sending the wrong message.

Very happy to do the shopping (again)

My friend organises a Red Cross charity stall and the boy and girl lucky dips are very popular,one yellow and one red bucket. She's aware it may annoy some people, but says with gifts like bracelets and hair slides,she sees no other option. And as she says,children are free to pick from whichever one they want, and sometimes do.

Yes!

And girls are sugar and sooce and all things nice!

And boys are worms and snails and puppy dogs tails!

And little girls should have pretty things and rock babies to sleep!

And boys should have torches and microscopes and explore the world!

Brilliant. It's 1830 and all is right with the world.

And also, why are we socialising children to consume cheap tat anyway, that causes other children to have to make it and their worlds to be polluted?

Probably because apple bobbing and coconut shies are risk assessment headache

I've just seen Let Toys Be Toys tweet to BusterBooks about their gendered colouring books.

If something as simple as a colouring book has cars, screws, pirate boats in, and a big label on the front "colouring for boys" it's not surprising that the message these things are for boys sinks in. When clothing, toys, magazines and colouring books are divided in stores into "boys" and "girls", it's just one of the many ways society influences our children and what they think is for them.

I don't think children decide that dolls are for girls and cars are for boys all by themselves.

Once when I was at a baby group with dd, the mum got really annoyed when she was handed a pair of toy rabbit ears to put on her ds, because they were for girls. I don't know why she thought they were for girls, they were white for one thing, no hint oif glitter. And I don't know why she thought her baby would care seeing as he was only about 5 months old. I think it's really strange.

My dp's mum said my dd was a typical girl because she is a flirt, particularly with men. It makes me feel a bit queasy typing that because my dd is only 15 months old and it's obviously a load of bullshit. Yesterday two mum's at playgroup were saying their little boys (who were just starting to crawl so quite young) are typical boys because they flirt with women. I genuinely don't get it. Plus all our children could turn out to be gay/lesbian and then what? All that pre-toddle flirting put to waste? Those two little boys were also typical boys because they were throwing toys about... Said while my dd was sitting next to them doing the same thing.

I've noticed a lot of people have this compulsion to point out anything that they think makes a child typical girl or boy. My dd so far has shown no interest in dolls, that's not a judgement just a fact. Last month dp's mum came over and spent ages trying to get her to engage with one. When dd finally picked it up herself, dp's mum said "it's so funny how it's inbuilt for girls to play with dolls"

I think this is just one of many things I don't understand about people.

It's perception bias, welsh. When you've got an opinion firmly lodged in your head, then everything you see seems to prove it. It's why anecdote is such rubbish evidence, and why scientific studies need to be (and often aren't) conducted in a rigorous manner to exclude these biases.

But why is a car a 'boy toy'? Why is a pony inherently more 'girly'?

Because society says so and children are very impressionable. So if you wrap a car in pink and a pony in blue, the children are going to know that the car isn't really a girl toy, if that makes sense.

It's like putting a yellow dress in the boy's clothing section. What makes a dress a girl piece of clothing? Just society's expectations. Except those expectations are very powerful and strong enough that simply moving items around and giving them different labels doesn't change what society says they are. Putting a dress in a boy's clothing section and saying they're all just clothes there's no such thing as girl clothes or boy clothes doesn't suddenly make it gender neutral. Same with toys.

Until society says that boys can play with dolls and girls can play with BB guns, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference what colored paper you put them in.

I've noticed a lot of people have this compulsion to point out anything that they think makes a child typical girl or boy. My dd so far has shown no interest in dolls, that's not a judgement just a fact. Last month dp's mum came over and spent ages trying to get her to engage with one. When dd finally picked it up herself, dp's mum said "it's so funny how it's inbuilt for girls to play with dolls"

Yeah, I've tried keeping dolls and pink crap out of the house because they're creepy and prone to demonic possession. My mom got DD (19 month) a cheap one just to tease me and she loves the stupid thing. Carries it around with her rocks it, kisses it. So she's getting a nice one for Christmas. Sigh.

Some kids naturally gravitate to them. DD loves hugging and rocking her toys. She also loves the color pink and ponies. Not much to be done about it I'm afraid. But since she genuinely likes that stuff, I don't mind getting it for her to enjoy.

welshhairs I find the baby flirting comments extremely fucking creepy. Two girls in my baby group go on about how their sons have 'eyes for the girls' and only smile at girls. They obviously think it makes their 3 month old look manly (???) but it just makes me think of them as baby Benny Hills!

Growing up in the 80s in USSR, girls toys were NEVER pink. Tea sets, dolls furniture, purses, prams -- they were all miniature copies of real things, like stainless steel pots and pans, a dark green pram, wooden kitchen set, etc. Even though society was VERY sexist, but nobody discouraged little girls from playing with cars.
This pink vs blue nonsense is a marketing trick to make people buy MORE things. E.g. My DS2 is cat crazy, however i struggle to to find something cat-themed that wouldn't be obviously girly.

Yes it's funny just how much control advertising/marketing has over us, and how little I think we think it does.

How about this idea OP? Since the lucky dip is supposed to be enjoyable for the children, ask a random handful in the relevant age group how they would like the lucky dip to be run. Do they want the toys all wrapped up in the same paper, or in different colours for 'girl' and 'boy' toys. See what they say, and then do that. Children should be free to make up their own minds about the type of toys they want to play with, so ask them what they want!

Surely the clue is in the name - LUCKY DIP. You dip in, you take your luck.

This gender stereotyping drives me potty.

When mine were young, DS was more likely to play with the dolls and prams, and DD played rugby, football and climbed trees. (Actually, they both climbed trees).

Action Man and Barbie played together, the Playmobil pirates and knights would have a battle and then all sit down together in the doll's house to share a cup of tea.

DD was always being bought 'girly' toys for birthdays and Christmas by well-meaning friends and relatives. The disappointment on her little face was a sight to behold every time she opened a gift. Although she politely said 'Thank you', we would, without fail, have the conversation "Why do people keep buying me girl's toys when they know I don't like them?"

It was other people who were trying to change her.

As for relatives and friends, unless they have specific request, they just buy things on assumption. Myself i wouldn't buy "opposite gender toys" for somebody else's child just not to be misunderstood.
My boys happily play with girls toys when in company of girls, but if they received such things as presents -- that would be really misunderstood.

Oh, and just to be clear - if a girl chooses to play with pink sparkly toys and a boy _chooses to play with balls and sticks and mud and trees, then of course, that is absolutely fine.

It is Enforced gender stereotyping that gets up my nose, and this is what a colour-coded lucky dip is, IMV.

But Nataleejah - my point in that post was: anyone who knew my daughter knew she didn't like typically girls' toys. Therefore, they were being obtuse to buy her pink, spangly toys and girl's diaries. When they KNEW she didn't like them. They were deliberately trying to change her.

I used to buy neutral toys for a child I didn't know too well, or make a point of asking the parent what the child might like.

I think it is difficult because we are all biased by our own personal likes and what we think our kids would or should want.

In the case of the blue/pink lucky dip I would prefer my DD (5) to choose from the boys tub because I know she would be happy to get either a car, dinosaur, action figure, water pistol or pretty much anything they put in there. However, she would probably feel compelled to choose from the girls' tub & be bitterly disappointed with hair bobbles, combs, purses or bracelets. She may actually get 'lucky' and get a toy pony, fairy wand or Frozen tat that she would like, but the odds of a prize she wants are going to be lower.

The worst thing about this is that dinosaurs would probably end up in the blue tub, and I've yet to meet a small girl who doesn't like dinosaurs.

Quite Shelby

Perhaps there should be a third neutral-gender lemon or peppermint green tub. But then that really would be bordering on the ridiculous!

Just one tub, you take your chances. If child is disappointed, then learn to live with it. Life is full of disappointments. Organise a swap session!!

senpai that is my point exactly.

It's a circular argument.

Children are not going to change unless society does. But we'll not bother changing society because the kids like it this way. Because society tells them they should.

Hence why I don't think you should do separate boys/girls lucky dips. It's the first step towards changing society. Really, it's relatively rare that someone outright says to boys 'you must not play with that toy because it's only for girls' (and vice versa). Instead it's a constant drip drip of pink this and blue that, the language involved around gender expectations, the types of toys given to boys and girls. We need to start by removing some of those drips.

Children are not going to change unless society does. But we'll not bother changing society because the kids like it this way. Because Society tells them they should

But if we do change society, then society will be telling them they should conform to something else... would that be all right?

If it's telling them to conform to being a kid rather than pigeon holing them into specific gender behaviours then I guess so!

Dodo - surely it's then allowing them to choose for themselves? That's alright, most definitely!

Hence why I don't think you should do separate boys/girls lucky dips. It's the first step towards changing society. Really, it's relatively rare that someone outright says to boys 'you must not play with that toy because it's only for girls' (and vice versa). Instead it's a constant drip drip of pink this and blue that, the language involved around gender expectations, the types of toys given to boys and girls. We need to start by removing some of those drips.

I understand what you're saying. But a school event is an isolated incident, not a social movement. Social values change gradually, as unfortunate as it is. That's going to take marketers to change and to change marketers you need to first have parents at the grass roots levels getting their children toys for from all over the gender spectrum.

If society isn't at that point, then giving boys dolls because "dolls are for everyone" is just a bit ham fisted and will only make the boys who feel dolls aren't for boys feel embarrassed instead of encouraging them to actually play with them.

I'm just saying a fun dip at a school even isn't the time to make a political statement about gender. That's all.