To think we should bring back the Death Penalty for proven very serious offenders

[ILiveAtTheBeach]

They have raped and murdered. Yet, they have no money worries, a roof over their head, 3 square meals a day, Sky TV, PS4, arranged activities....why are we so bloody soft? We have an over crowding problem in jails. Why can't we give these monsters a lethal injection and be done with it? Sometimes they are released back into society under a false identity (to protect them). What about our protection? They could move in next door. Who would be up for getting rid?

I have been in lots of prisons (in a professional capacity, not as an inmate!)

It's really not as luxurious as the DM makes out. Cells are small and basic. Sometimes inmates don't even have full privacy to go to the toilet. Bedding etc is quite primitive (thin mattresses and pillows, scratchy blankets).

I would be surprised if they had PS4s, assuming that is some kind of latest games console, I'm not sure. I don't know if they have Sky and if they do whether it is basic or luxury version - I can imagine it is very heavily controlled so inmates cannot see anything 'unsuitable' - anything that may give them ideas about escaping, anything remotely sexy, anything that may prejudice trials for example - they probably just have the national geographic channel and cartoon network

A lot of the activities are about learning skills to enable inmates to go back into society and hopefully stay on the straight and narrow - employment skills etc. And people that are kept occupied are less likely to cause trouble or reoffend.

Yes, they get fed, but I can assure the OP that the food is very basic, smells disgusting and is served at quite odd times of day (lunch at 11.30 am, evening meal 5/6 pm and then nothing until breakfast at 7/8 am).

Yes, some people are truely evil and you often think 'what are we doing spending tens of thousands per year keeping a bad person alive - I think the high security places cost about £50k/person per year.

But due to all the appeals etc, it isn't any cheaper to keep people on death row and it doesn't appear to be a deterrent to stop people commiting serious crime or behaving themselves while in prison. After all, if you are facing a death sentence you would have no disincentive against harming an officer or anyone else working in a prison would you?

And many prisoners come to quite an unpleasant end in prison too - other inmates often go after the really bad ones - there is quite a code of honour against those who have committed the most disgusting crimes, especially against women and children.

It's easy to have a gut feeling that we should just kill 'these people' but evidence suggests that society doesn't benefit overall from such a policy.

Murder is wrong
whether done by
the state (Saudi, China, USA Russia)
political / terrorist groups (ISIS, Tamil Tigers, IRA, ETA)
individuals (Peter Sutcliffe, Ian Brady)
its just wrong

Another one against the death penalty, though mainly because of the number of innocent who are executed.

That being said, if I were given the choice between life imprisonment and the death penalty for myself, I would opt for the death penalty. So I think in the end they are getting a harsher sentence as it is and we avoid killing innocent people. Win, win.

And herein lies the point of the sliding scale of crime. Some crimes are just too heinous - but who is the rational person to decide that?

Ok, so we're killing every person who kills a child. But my child was 16 years and 1 day when she was murdered, so her murderer just gets life. Not killed.

Ok, but my child was raped, and his life is changed forever and he'll never recover. Surely he should die too.

Yep, OK, we'll include rape too.

But my child was....

Sorry to use crude and potentially upsetting examples but you cannot define who is a better class of criminal based on emotive subjects like these. I don't agree with it and never will.

I would not support the death penalty in any circumstances.
I'd be interested to see whether paying the legal costs and administrative costs for lengthy appeals processes, keeping prisoners on death row whilst those appeals take place, compensation for mistakes etc etc actually saved much money in the long run.

Whilst I do understand your sentiment, OP, I watched a tv programme at the weekend about death row and they talked about the people wrongly convicted and killed before being found innocent years later. Dreadful, simply dreadful.

One poor woman was jailed with her husband for a crime; both on death row. He was killed before they were both exonerated. She lives with the horror of a wrongful conviction and her innocent husband killed by the state.

This thread does raise an interesting question. How would modern society handle Hitler or evil of his equal if they were to be tried on British soil?

'I was watching the thread wondering how long it would be before the debunked "the death penalty is murder" claim came up'. Debunked by whom? Debunked how? Would you care to cite some sources? Debunked means proven to be false. People are offering their opinions. How exactly can you prove someone's opinion to be false?

'The difference between illegitimate murder and a state lawfully sentencing an offender to death as restitution should be clear.' Well, it isn't clear to me, or presumably some other posters. Would you like to explain it? To me, taking a life is taking a life.

It's only clear when you believe that the State is above reproach, Shadows. ... I, too, believe that taking a life is taking a life.

My rational brain disagrees with the death penalty because of the number of miscarriages of justice and because disproportionate numbers of poor mem and black men are executed in the US.

My emotional brain thinks people like Ian Watkins and Tracey Connolley should die in pain as punishment for their disgusting crimes.

YABvU OP.

Ian Brady is desperate to die and I am pleased that he has been kept alive. Being forced fed and kept alive in Broadmoor is more effective than the death penalty.

Yes ReallyTired, that is a good point. Ian Brady has ultimately lost any control over his life and he appears to be a very controlling person so it's worse than death. For him.

oh, just for proven killers. Because no miscarriages of justice very happen right?

I don't want to live in a society that thinks killing people is a good form of punishment.

Sky TV was only ever available in a very small number of prisons run by public companies, and was banned two years ago. OP, if you think prisons are luxurious, you have incredibly low standards of luxury.

I was watching the thread wondering how long it would be before the debunked "the death penalty is murder" claim came up. It's like saying prison is state sanctioned kidnap. The difference between illegitimate murder and a state lawfully sentencing an offender to death as restitution should be clear.

No, in moral terms there is no difference. I find the notion of the very cold-blooded killing of a person by the state at least as horrible as the idea of murder. I cannot imagine the horror of knowing that at a defined time and date next month, next week, tomorrow morning, someone is going to come to me in cold blood and kill me and there will be nothing I can do about it even though every instinct is screaming at me to try to save myself. It's utterly horrific for a guilty person: imagine what it is like for the innocent.

Were you off school sick the week that this was on the curriculum OP?

"a state lawfully sentencing an offender to death as restitution" - Restitution? Please explain!!1!

Does the name Lesley Molseed ring a bell OP?

It should. An 11yr old girl murdered, the man convicted and sentenced to life behind bars.

Except he was actually innocent. One of the worst miscarriages of justice in this country - he only had 18 months of freedom after his release from prison before he died.

Even with DNA, wrongful convictions happen a lot more often than we would like. How the hell would any of us like it if one of our loved ones were convicted and put to death wrongly?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lesley_Molseed#Release_and_death

Rand of course the Guildford Four and Birmingham six.
I too have spent periods in prisons, in a professional capacity, I haven't come across a luxury one yet.

Yes, I think some people deserve to die. But, I don't trust the establishment to be free of corruption, to be free of prejudice, to just get it wrong. Forensics and DNA and years of Quincy and CSI have lulled people into thinking they are infallible - i don't think so.

Justice for all doesn't exist, it's an unequal and often unfair system. 50 years a ago was the last execution (I think). Innocent people were executed, do you really want to go back to that. One day it could be you or somone you love.

OP, have a look at a list of countries that still have the death penalty and tell me how many of those countries you would like to live in. A lot of those countries have very poor human rights records. I think the death penalty is often part of the state having a very poor regard for the lives of any of their citizens.

www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/29/death-penalty-countries-world

70% of British Prison inmates have been through our "care" system.

70% have one or more mental health issues.

About 50% have a substance misuse issue.

It's us who are failing these vulnerable people and turning them into "monsters".

Oh - and YABVVU.

Sorry that should read 50% of women prisoners have a substance misuse issue.