To complain to this teacher (and what do I say)?

[MerryMarigold]

Dd (Y2) started a new school on Monday. The school uniform says PE kit should be school T shirt and black shorts. Before she started and I was in school, I saw some of the older girls doing PE in cycling shorts, so I assumed black leggings would be ok and sent her in with these in her PE kit.

Anyway, she had PE on Wednesday and came home saying she is not allowed the leggings and needs black shorts. Fine , I will go to the uniform shop at the weekend, which is probably the only place you can get them at this time of year. Then yesterday she had PE again and had to sit out because she didn't have the shorts. Apparently you can't do gymnastics in leggings. She was sad as they were playing stuck in the mud which she loves. I really don't see why you can't wear leggings to play that!

This is not some posh school, it is a state school in a fairly deprived area. At our last school we didn't even have a pointless PE uniform.

I just feel it was very unkind to make a small girl sit out of PE which she loves, single her out in her first week at a new school and give me one evening's notice to get shorts for her.

So, anyway, do I bring this up with class teacher (who is lovely)? Or PE teacher herself? And what do I say?

Can a mistake be wilful, darth?

Or even willful?

I'm from Scotland and our schools do have a uniform policy, don't know why others are saying they don't. Plus children at dd/ds school have had to sit out when they forgot their pe kit.

Dd even has specific shorts she needs to wear for pe (at least they only cost £5!).

Buy some shorts and she's good to go

Schools up here cannot enforce uniform demented - it's not a policy in that way.

Bonus point to you sirchenjin

Darth I wasn't just being a pedant btw there I genuinely meant if a mistake is made, surely it's a mistake not deliberate and therefore a bit OTT to be punished for?

Yes but by that logic ("It's only a few more inches of material between shorts and leggings") you could argue anything, that's why they have a policy in the first place. Or you'd have children showing up in jeans - "well they're the same colour as the trousers" etc. Cycling shorts are shorts, leggings are not.

I agree that making her sit out was a bit harsh, but you could have got her shorts so it was avoidable. I don't really understand why you chose something similar to what you saw somebody else wearing, rather than what the uniform list actually said, but hey ho.

The school very well may allow tracksuit bottoms for different sports. For gymnastics theyve said shorts and tshirts.

When i was at school 20 years ago outdoor pe, basketball, netball, rounders was polo shirt and pe skirt with cycling shorts underneath. Gymnastics was tshirt and gym knickers.

leia cycling shorts and leggings are really not similar. One is an item of sports wear. One is an item of every day clothing.

Yay - I win the most facetious, pedant award

I agree though. It wasn't wilful, surely - it was a genuine misunderstanding. Not worth making a child sit at the side imo.

You say the teacher had "singled her out". But she didn't, did she? You did it yourself, by sending her in to a second PE lesson with leggings having been told after the first one that eggings weren't allowed.

or leggings...

The thing is, all schools - actually, all collective environments - have a number of 'blanket rules' (stated or unstated) that make daily collective life possible. The vast majority of these are extremely petty and open to challenge on the basis that 'it's not important / nobody is harmed if it doesn't happen'. A few off the top of my head:

• All lunchboxes on 2 particular shelves
• Line up in particular groups
• Walk down to assembly in silent single file
• Collect a whiteboard and pen on your way into the classroom
• Hand in your diary every Monday morning

etc etc etc etc

There are also 'automatic blanket / ritual responses' to frequent issues.

Such 'ways of doing things round here' make things go more smoothly, and avoid lots and lots of time being taken up by individual responses to individual items or requests.

If a school decided that uniform matters - some do, some don't - then it is usual for there to be 'blanket / ritual' responses to the more usual transgressions, to avoid lots of time being taken up with dealing with every single separate issue. If a school has a PE uniform, and has decided it is important enough to enforce, with a penalty of sitting out if the child doesn't have it, then that is the 'ritual'. It may not be the ritual another school has (ours is sitting out and taking notes, but only after the spares box has been raided for anything suitable) but if it is the school ritual, then it is likely to be because the staff were finding that dealing with lots and lots of transgressions on an individual basis was taking up lots and lots of lesson time.

Leggings are worn for sports - they are perfectly suited for PE. In fact, our school suggests leggings (any kind) or tracksuit bottoms for outdoor PE

How on earth can the fact that a yr 2 child was forced to sit out and watch PE as she had an extra four inches of material on her "bottoms" be anything other than trivial and petty?

Seems like this teacher is not the only person, judging from the responses on here! How could I think leggings were as they are clearly NOT cycling shorts .

I have 3 kids, including a child in Y5 and am not one of those parents who constantly complain (in fact, I think I've only complained once about something which was genuinely fairly bad). But, as an insightful poster said, it is our first week in a new school and we are all a bit more emotional/ sensitive than usual. Plus it is so different/ inconsistent as the actual school uniform is fairly flexible as long as you are within a red/ white/ black colour scheme - there's black jumpers, red jumpers, black school sweatshirt/ red school sweatshshirt, white polos, red polos, school embossed polos (which are a different coloured red) etc. etc. It really didn't come across as very strict uniform-wise, but there we go. You live and learn.

I will speak to the class teacher, who is lovely and has nothing to do with PE as far as I can tell. I will ask her if she knows what happened, and say what dd told me has happened. Without making it a 'big deal', I would like to register that I am not happy about it.

(The other thing that can take up lots and lots and lots of time is 'but X wore leggings last week and SHE took part, so I've got leggings today because my mum thought I would be cold and I should be able to take part too.' It is for this reason that some schools, who have decided that uniform is important, will impose 'blanket' rules / guidelines that are clear to everyone)

Calleigh when I was at school it was the accepted practice that "cross country" meant running around the local roads in a polo shirt and navy knickers. Times change and thank fuck for that.

It saddens me though that one of the biggest lessons schools still try to teach is conformity. Let children be children I say. I also don't agree with punishing the child for something they are not responsible for - it's not like the child could have gone and bought the correct kit. I think physical activity and and allowing a child to be a member of a group (rather than excluding them) is more important than what is really a very minor issue.

But if there aren't consequences for not following the rules, what would be the incentive to do so? Allowing her to do gym in her leggings this week would hardly encourage you to rush out and buy the correct shorts, would it? Because next week, you could say, "Well, you let her do it in her leggings last week, why is it a problem this week?"

Personally, I wouldn't mention it to the teacher - as you've accepted, you're in the wrong for not following, for whatever reason (cycling shorts) the rules: children have to take the consequences in school for their parents' errors, unfortunately. Like getting into trouble when you're late, when actually, it was your mother's fault, because she forgot her glasses and had to go back for them before she dropped you off - the child is hauled up for being after the bell, not the mother. It's one of those things, and hardly important, I am afraid.

Teacher do you honestly really believe excluding a child from PE for this isn't petty?

No wonder schools are simply turning into conveyor belts and a lot of them are missing the point that they are they to educate children?

(IME, teachers who do not take the class the whole time can be more sticklers for 'blanket rules' than the main staff - sometimes because they feel they don't have the discretion, sometimes because they don't necessarily have the same respect from the children as a 'classroom' teacher [could be mopre respect, could be less... will vary!], and partly because they don't have the awareness of other things that are happening in the child's life)

Given that the uniform rules were perfectly clear but ignored, maybe the teacher thought that - if the children were allowed to take part - the parents wouldn't feel any urgency about getting it sorted??

Agree Purple

I think the most important thing here is the physical exercise. If, for example, a child forgot his ruler would he be kept out of a maths class? Of course not. Flexibility and a bit of common sense is the most important thing here.

It was WILFUL (excuse my typo, spelling pedants) because she had the list, she knew what was required, and MISTAKENLY thought she would get away with it. It was clearly written what was required and OP chose to ignore it.

I agree they shouldn't make her sit out and I also agree uniforms can be ridiculous (black shoes must have no hint of colour on them, clothes for girls can't be too tight, etc.) but this was a fairly standard requirement, and leggings cannot be mistaken for shorts.

You ignored the rules, now you want to argue the consequences. Tough titty.

Oh, and she will have the shorts by Monday (hopefully the school will have supplied the correct T shirt by then too).

And I will be going for the next governor's post. I've experienced 3 schools (none perfect) but this one needs a bit of sorting imvho!

But the rule itself seems to be pretty pointless? It's nothing to do with health and safety ie trailing sleeves, untied laces.

Why do people justify this by saying the amount of time spent enforcing the rule is a consideration, it's missing the point that the rule itself is completely meaningless.

And I won't even start about the issues girls have with PE, clothing etc etc...

Purple, as I have said, many, many, many of the 'ways we do things round here' in any collective setting are EXTREMELY petty in isolation. But having 'ritual rules and consequences' does make the whole thing run along more smoothly - and allow the maximum time for actual education.

55 minute PE lesson. 10 minutes, for a well-trained class, to change into and out of PE kit. No discussion about uniform and who sits in or out because consequences are known. 45 mins good PE for 28 of the class. 2 don't have correct kit and sit out.

55 minute PE lesson. Changing takes 15 minutes because several children want to know whether what they have is correct or now, and what the consequences might be. Add the 5 minutes in for changing back. 35 minutes good PE for, say, 29 of the class.

Repeat weekly..... over time, the first class will get 10 minutes more quality PE education per week, adding up to a couple of hours over the term.