To think (actually believe) that there is a hierachy of grief when someone dies?

[Fatmomma99]

Just that really, because of a text conversation I've had with a distant by blood, but close by friendship cousin tonight.

Sorry if this is long.
My cousin had a properly crap mother (as in, my cousin would go to bed being unsure about whether or not her mother would murder her and her brother while they slept. Let's say emotionally unstable!). And so my cousin was mostly brought up by her grandmother. Her grandmother was one of those amazing women we meet sometimes. She was "all things to all people", meaning she understood what people wanted and gave it to them. She never criticized, she made you feel special. She was flawed in lots of human ways, but she was amazing.

She died 11 months ago, and my cousin was devastated, as was everyone who ever knew her. It would have been her birthday next week, so I sent my cousin a text (because she's had a really tough year with grieving and other stuff) saying "it would have been her birthday, thinking of you" and then the text conversation went on, and as part of that conversation I said "I miss her, but not as much as you do" (i.e. the point of this post - I was recognizing my loss was not as great as my cousin's) and she (she is VERY sorted) texted back "not necessarily".

But I think, actually, however much I mourn my great aunt, it's nothing compared to what my cousin is missing.

When my dad died, in my head the hierarchy was: My mum, me/my sister, his sister, grandchildren, cousins/nieces and nephews, the rest of the world. (my dad owned his own business, so had a LOT of employees who'd worked for him longer than I've been alive, and was a BIG pub go-er, so lots of pub people who were really fond of him. I didn't find their grief or sadness to be more or bigger than mine, although I appreciated that they missed him).

Possibly, this stems from when my dad's dad died; my maternal uncle (i.e. my mum's brother in law) told me at the funeral that he was sadder than me because he'd known him longer. And I remember looking at him and thinking (but not saying) "fuck off... you may have known him longer, but you saw him rarely (at big family gatherings) and he was my grandpa".

To be really, really, really clear (and not expecting anyone to read all this), I'm not negating that people feel loss or sadness at a death, I just think people should be aware however sad they are, their sadness/loss doesn't "trump" a close family member, although most family members (including me) like to know how someone they loved touched another person's life.

This is a no-brainer, isn't it?

I can't see how a hierarchy is the least helpful. You hope that, as Micah says, everyone helps each other and grieves together- not have a competition in levels of grief.

It isn't helpful. It's corrosive to those left behind.

If people are able to do nothing more or less than come together and be allowed their own feelings on the matter, then the grieving process can only be smoother.

Sorry, but I must be selfish then.

I didn't want to hear my sisters grief. I didn't want to know about her failed exams. I didn't care that she wanted to meet her niece.

I cared that my daughter died and I nearly died and that my husband and I were childless. I didn't and don't want to know about other people's feelings, I can barely deal with my own.

No, fatmomma your theory is certainly not a no-brainer. Why are you so insistent that your cousin's grief must be worse than yours, or anybody else's in the family? Some people grieve a lot, others are perhaps a bit more pragmatic. Why are you telling her how much she must miss her grandmother? She knows how she feels, a simple 'thinking of you today' text would suffice.

I have an elderly friend (she's 86) who I'm very close to. She is quite frail and I know when she dies, I'll be absolutely heartbroken. Of course I'd try to hold it together at her funeral but would hate people to be looking at me critically, thinking 'She's only known her for 10 years! I've known her for more than 60!'

Yes, there may be a very loose hierarchy of grief, but it can be pretty difficult to know where we all sit in it; there are just too many variables.

slithy I don't think anybody's suggesting you're selfish . Your mother was foolish and crass. In your circumstances, of course grieving parents needs come before any other relative's. I can only begin to imagine how I would feel if one of my nieces and nephews died, but it would be nothing compared to my sisters' grief.

I think it totally depends on your family dynamic. I know that my DM married my father for financial security and doesnt 'do' love. I outright asked her why she married him once: as I couldnt see what on earth they had in common & she replied : 'he had a good job'. My sister also never got on with him/had a power struggle dynamic (she likes to be in charge of any relationship , she has to be Boss of whatever is happening). As soon as he became ill, she revelled in being the decision maker for my DM who is passive to anyone controlling but emotionally abusive to those who arent. I can honestly say I mourned him the most. Its nice that you realise your Cousin was closer than you tho, so may feel it more.

I do not think there is a hierarchy of grief for everyone their grief is personal

and what so often happens is that the feelings of loss bring up so many other feelings of loss in someone's life, relationships, childhood, the loss of never having had the relationship they have wanted so the emotions that someone is feeling is often not just grief for the person who has died but loss for so many things that happen in our life

I worked as a bereavement counsellor it is really sad to see how families fall apart, argue, will compete among each other who is hurting the most, sometimes it is that someone is in so much pain that they can not see how it is possible others can be because they may have seen them smile, they are able to not break down in tears, or simply this has always been the family dynamic. The arguments over money is also so often easier for someone to deal with than actually face the fact they are never going to see their mother, father etc again they will stay focused on that and appear money grabbing and to not really care.

It is so complex I never make assumptions, of course it would be wrong to but even if I did I would be proven wrong over and over again what you think someone is feeling, what they say or how they act is so often very different to how they are actually feeling.

If there are problems with relationships (family or friends) they will show up in bereavement. If relationships are good you are not even going to think about hierarchies.

I think there is a hierarchy I though that when my mum died, before her death I hadn't experienced grief. I didn't want sympathy, but I had taken 8 hrs to travel from the other end of the uk, and they kept the body there for me and the hospital rather than in the chiller. When I arrived I got hugs, but my aunt and others seemed to be surround my big sister like she was the only one grieving. I thought it was my inner demons so I turned a blind eye. But soon after my aunt said oh ur sister isn't taking it well, my brothers said the same. I just thought none of us are just because I'm not wailing it doesn't mean I'm grieiving any less or loved her any less. I felt like I was the sister who didn't exist, but ive always felt like that, maybe its the middle child syndrome?

in my culture there is this presumption on seeing a wailing woman in particular that she must have loved her mother or x member more than the rest which is bull. I guess I felt bitter because up to the funeral and after she was given all this attention. I was bitter also because I had cared for my mother for years, done housework and cooking for her for years. This sibling lived in another city but very close yet couldn't handle hearing about my mothers needs when she was ill, she would always say she was too busy. shed cut my mother off on the phone. Yet here she was receiving all this attention like she was hurting the most and she was the most beloved. maybe she was more loved I duno don't care, I just thought the unbalanced attention she received was unfair.

I don't think its fair but this crappy hierarchy does exist.

I don't think anyone thought about a hierarchy when dd died.

It was just that my mum is an insensitive cow who thought I was the right person to talk about how hard it all was for my fucking sister.

This sister who barely saw me and couldn't give a shit about my pregnancy, apparently losing HER niece (hate that) was just unbearable.

I'm still so angry.

Slithylove, I don't know how you feel exactly since it was your DD, but I sympathise regarding your feelings for your sister I too am bitter. I have noticed its not just a hierarchy at death as such its everywhere our lives meet pretty sad really and it seems to be other family members who create it.

I wouldn't have termed it as a hierarchy but OP is right it seems to be.

My dad died and not one of my family ever acknowledged my own personal loss. They diverted all their attentions and words of sympathy to my mother. He had a memorial service during which I started sobbing uncontrollably. Family looked at me as if I was dancing the can can in a Darth Vadar costume.

I think there is a grief hierarchy, but it can be very difficult to judge who is where in that hierarchy.

I think age has a lot to do with it. The younger you are when somebody close to you dies, or the younger the person who passed away is, the worse it is for those behind.

A very good friend from my secondary and high school killed herself age 21. I still sometimes think about her, and her life leading up to that.

Two friends have died in the last 2 years. Both my age, around 41/42. The first a mum of 3, leaving behind a husband and children aged between 15 and 10. That funeral was the worst I have experienced. The second was pretty bad, as there was no family present other than his dad. My friends dad had lost his wife, daughter and son all within few years. Another friend has a very aggressive cancer and will not have long, her 4 children are between 3 and 13, she is not even 40 yet.

With all these relatively young deaths, I find it hard to feel the same in funerals of people having lived long and good lives.

Having said that, I loved my uncle dearly, he died of a heart attack when he was 78. He was way too young! I would have wanted him around much much longer. I would have wanted him around to see and get to know my children. He held my oldest son on his lap ONCE when he was a baby. And the look of happiness on my uncles face, I still remember it. I was much closer to my uncle than I have ever been with my dad.

Sorry to all of you have have suffered such losses.

I agree with Midnitescribbler on P1, and then several others.
Anyone who thinks the amount you are grieving is something competitive has some issues they would do well to look at.
'Hierarchy of grief' is ridiculous.
Different people have obviously got closer relationships with the deceased than others.
Different people have known the deceased for different lengths of time.
Different people have different shared experiences with the deceased.
Different people process grief in diffent way and in different timescales.
Clearly some people are going to struggle more than others with a death, but to make it into some kind of competition is juxt odd, and totally unnecessary.

Perhaps if some selfish cunts like my family knew about the hierarchy of grief, they could have kept their gobs shut and not made the worst time of my life even worse.

No one wanted that child more than me and DH. No ones lives were turned upside down more. No one had a physical symptom of her death but me. No one 'knew' her but us.

It shouldn't have been competitive. But by making my mums and sisters grief all important and encompassing, it became that way. Not my choice.

I'm so angry tonight. Sorry.

Im not sure about hierarchy. People just deal differently with grief. For example my DF died suddenly and his passing devestated me as I did not say goodbye.

My DM, on the other hand, had a slow painful death and because I had been somewhat 'prepared' for her to go, I did not feel as much grief iykwim.

I loved them both the same. When DM passed, I very much supported teenage DD as they were very close and it was the first close person to her to die. (DF passed when DD was a toddler so did not have much recollection of him).

Grief hits everybody differently for different reasons.

Slithy, I "know" you from your thread about photos. Your family are shits. I'm so sorry! I completely understand your anger.

Micah - my relationship with my cousin is totally robust. She is someone I can never, never get it wrong with, and we always "get" each other. I def didn't upset her, and she will have been pleased I acknowledged her grandmother's birthday, even though I got the day wrong (which will have amused her). She is a VERY sorted woman, who has been crying for a year and she will have liked that I reached out to her with my text. Definitely and certainly.

There have been points today where I was regretting starting this thread, because it opened up so much pain for people. I hope it's been cathartic. You have all touched me really deeply - way beyond what I was thinking when I started it. I've cried a lot today, and been thinking about my dad masses (I'm hoping I'm going to dream about him tonight! This is always like a gift to me when I wake up!). And thinking so much of all of you who have shared. I find this thread very moving.

Hugs to you all. x

(If I knew you in RL, I would proper hug you for your losses, for your taking on of responsibility, for your concern for others around you). Some of the stories on here are so hard to read. And all I can say on the internet is that I have read them, and felt for you and understood your pain and hardship. There are some amazing people on MN. x

Sorry for being so angry. It was a bad day and my sister has been up to her usual shit which doesnt help.
Feel I derailed the thread a bit.

don't be sorry you have not derailed the thread at all

why shouldn't you be angry not only are you dealing with the loss of your dd but others are trying to suppress your grief. why I do not know its terribly unfair family dynamics really play out in difficult times and often for the worse

it is far better you express how you feel here, with friends, therapy than keep it in

Perhaps if some selfish cunts like my family knew about the hierarchy of grief, they could have kept their gobs shut and not made the worst time of my life even worse.

I am so sorry for your loss slithytove

Just reading the brief comments about them that you have on here I suspect they are so narcissistic and up their own arses that even if they knew about it, they would not care.

Likely they would perceive themselves at the highest peak.

They should be ashamed of themselves.

Fatmomma99 Look after yourself I hope you dream well tonight.