To think (actually believe) that there is a hierachy of grief when someone dies?

[Fatmomma99]

Just that really, because of a text conversation I've had with a distant by blood, but close by friendship cousin tonight.

Sorry if this is long.
My cousin had a properly crap mother (as in, my cousin would go to bed being unsure about whether or not her mother would murder her and her brother while they slept. Let's say emotionally unstable!). And so my cousin was mostly brought up by her grandmother. Her grandmother was one of those amazing women we meet sometimes. She was "all things to all people", meaning she understood what people wanted and gave it to them. She never criticized, she made you feel special. She was flawed in lots of human ways, but she was amazing.

She died 11 months ago, and my cousin was devastated, as was everyone who ever knew her. It would have been her birthday next week, so I sent my cousin a text (because she's had a really tough year with grieving and other stuff) saying "it would have been her birthday, thinking of you" and then the text conversation went on, and as part of that conversation I said "I miss her, but not as much as you do" (i.e. the point of this post - I was recognizing my loss was not as great as my cousin's) and she (she is VERY sorted) texted back "not necessarily".

But I think, actually, however much I mourn my great aunt, it's nothing compared to what my cousin is missing.

When my dad died, in my head the hierarchy was: My mum, me/my sister, his sister, grandchildren, cousins/nieces and nephews, the rest of the world. (my dad owned his own business, so had a LOT of employees who'd worked for him longer than I've been alive, and was a BIG pub go-er, so lots of pub people who were really fond of him. I didn't find their grief or sadness to be more or bigger than mine, although I appreciated that they missed him).

Possibly, this stems from when my dad's dad died; my maternal uncle (i.e. my mum's brother in law) told me at the funeral that he was sadder than me because he'd known him longer. And I remember looking at him and thinking (but not saying) "fuck off... you may have known him longer, but you saw him rarely (at big family gatherings) and he was my grandpa".

To be really, really, really clear (and not expecting anyone to read all this), I'm not negating that people feel loss or sadness at a death, I just think people should be aware however sad they are, their sadness/loss doesn't "trump" a close family member, although most family members (including me) like to know how someone they loved touched another person's life.

This is a no-brainer, isn't it?

Yanbu. You were trying to be considerate and acknowledge that the loss for your cousin was likely to be greater than your own. I might have read her comment as a rejection of that so I'm glad there's another interpretation.

I can't see how 'hierarchies of grief' are helpful to anyone- it is rather like 'grief by numbers'.

Yanbu.

When my daughter died, my mum went on and on and on about how much it affected my sister, how she had no one to talk to, screwed up her exams etc.

I was NOT the right audience for that shit and I've not forgiven either of them over 3 years later.

Hardly a shock though, the same woman had a huge screaming argument at me when I didn't want her staying with us the day we had our post birth debrief and postmortem results.

There is definitely a hierarchy.

Sorry for everyone's losses on this thread

Perhaps the headachy dictates the direction one should express their grief too, rather than how much grief they should have.

And of course I meant hierarchy

Well, naturally there is a hierarchy (even if mumsnet says there isn't, I've never seen this phrase outside of here). For example it is the normal course of things to lose a parent and unspeakably bad to lose a child.

Years ago I went to dinner with some friends from university and one of the women had lost a 4 month old baby to SIDS a year or so before. One of the other women told her she never understood the depths of her grief until she'd had her recent miscarriage - that was pretty bad.

When my daughter died, my mum went on and on and on about how much it affected my sister, how she had no one to talk to, screwed up her exams etc.

I'm so sorry slithytove. I wouldn't be able to forgive that either. How absolutely shocking.

Of course there is a hierarchy- I just can't see how talking about it is remotely helpful.

Yes I do think there is a hierarchy, but not so explicit that you would talk about it IYSWIM. I would always hope that people were decent enough for that hierarchy to manifest itself naturally, but reading some peoples stories on this thread, I can see that is not the case

It sounds like you and your cousin and your Granny had a lovely relationship and she was acknowledging that. My Dad's sister died recently and the hierarchy was worth being aware of. Her daughters, definitely first, then her siblings. But although she was my Godmother and a very good one too, she was my mothers oldest friend (my parents married young) and I definitely wanted to acknowledge that. In the end I wrote to my cousins and Dad but also made a point of talking about my Auntie with my Mum.

For example it is the normal course of things to lose a parent and unspeakably bad to lose a child.

I'm not entirely sure about this, Sarah. My mom died very suddenly when I was 19. My grandma made the grieving process very much about her and I was expected to provide her with support. I remember at the graveside that she leaned against me, and I felt like I had to hold her up both physically and emotionally.

I'll admit that she and I are not close, and some of that stemmed from her very dysfunctional relationship with my mom. But while I'm sure the grief of losing your child is awful in any situation, at 19 I felt like my loss was greater. My mom was in my life every day and I still had an overwhelming need for her. Her absence is felt keenly through every stage of my life. I'm pregnant, and I can't tell you the number of times that I've cried because I can't share this with her. That loss certainly doesn't feel like the normal course of things.

Mehit people struggle with what to say when someone dies and mistakingly think that talking about their own grief is a way of paying tribute to the deceased. It is, but being aware of the hierarchy, or circle would have stopped slithy's Mum being so crass.
I've heard it a lot about bereaved granny's/ daughters.

I agree that there's a hierarchy but of course life is complicated and it doesn't always follow the standard rules.

I remember my lovely but sometimes emotionally clueless dad saying that he could empathise with some friends whose twenty year old son had just died because his own father had just died, in his eighties, after a long illness. Thank god he didn't say that to their faces - DM and I made it clear, kindly but firmly, that it was not really the same thing at all. However that's talking about grown adults losing elderly parents - obviously a child or teen like Titus losing their parent is quite different. I'm so sorry you had to suffer that Titus.

I disagree.

Nobody can say how upset or how much grief another person feels.

I know women who were actually relieved when their husband died.

You do not know how much love one person has for another.

A good friend of mine has told me she considers myself and dcs as her family.

She is not close to her parents, her own brother did not attend and was not invited to her wedding. Are you suggesting that she cares more for him tban me? Or that I would be less upset than her brother?

To be clear I have had the misfortune of having to attend 3 funerals within the space of 1 week.

None of these people were blood relatives and in those circumstances I know full well that my grief was nothing in comparison to the grief felt by their immediate families.

After my children died I had some very twattish things said to me.

I still don't think its a 'grief hierarchy' as such, just being respectful of others and not acting like an idiot.

If everyone feels a loss then use it to comfort each other not as a competition.

I also think it is similar to weddings.

I've lost count of how many arguments I've witnessed alone the lines of ' you must invite second cousin once removed x along with their partner and 4 children. Yes I know they live in another country now and you have never met their partner or dc and you haven't sooken to said relative for 30 years but they are family!'

A close friend of mine died suddenly four years ago. Although I loved my gran, my friends death affected me much more than my grans'. I still miss my friend and often think of her

I can understand this, completely.

A friend of ours died two years ago after a long illness. Aged 30, leaving a spouse and three very young children. I've never experienced anything as awful as that funeral before or since.

I actually struggle with the death of elderly people now, which I've only realised recently and know would probably seem odd/unrelated to some. Three people fairly close to me have lost a grandparent over the last few months and as much as I try my best to sympathise, inside I feel nothing for them (whilst hopefully controlling my face and reactions enough to never let it show).

At the last funeral I went to of an 88 year old woman, I was boiling with anger. That all these people were crying and moaning about a near 90 year old that had lived her life and died fairly quickly and peacefully. Old people are supposed to die after all. I never used to feel this way but kind of feel like a bit of my sympathy gene was broken by going to the funeral of a young woman.

I really can't see that (now) i'll feel any different about my own grandparents or parents even, should they make it to a good age. I feel terribly cold and uncaring but there's not much you can really do about the way you feel/think in these situations.

I think it's dangerous to generalise.

When my grandfather died in his 90s after a good life we were all really sad, but the person who was most upset at the funeral was his best friend at his old people's home. She'd only met him a couple of years earlier but getting to know him had made so much difference to her lonely life there that she was absolutely devastated. I felt really sympathetic to her - it was obvious to me that in many ways her loss was greater than mine.

I also think that people who verbalise the 'grief hierarchy' or try and sympathise with you about your loss by mentioning their different loss are complete twats.

My MIL posted the most awful facebook sticker thing a couple of years ago, tagging me and dh in it. Something like 'Supporting those suffering infant loss and miscarriage, hugs' etc. With a comment that she was thinking about us and the grandchild she never got to meet. I miscarried at NINE fucking weeks. For someone to compare that, or even include it in the same sentence as infant loss made me feel sick to my stomach.

So what is the hierarchy when a husband dies? Is it his mum first and wife second? Where do the husbands siblings stand?

I actually struggle with the death of elderly people now, which I've only realised recently and know would probably seem odd/unrelated to some. Three people fairly close to me have lost a grandparent over the last few months and as much as I try my best to sympathise, inside I feel nothing for them (whilst hopefully controlling my face and reactions enough to never let it show)

I completely agree with this and hate myself for feeling this way. My brother died when he was 27 and since then I struggle to be overly sympathetic when an elderly relative dies. I know it's unreasonable as the age of people has no bearing on how much they mean to someone, but honestly it's something I really struggle with.

Tbh Worlds I'm glad that i'm not alone in feeling like it. It's not something I would ever tell someone in RL, not even DH.

I am with you with the elderly thing- my grandma was a lovely lady, but she was really old when she died. She had a good life, celebrated her last birthday with all her family and friends, decided she had had enough and died (not suicide, she just gave up). I was sad she died and I miss her, but mostly I am not sad as everyone has to die and you can't ask for a nicer end really. I have cried far more tears for my friends stillborn daughter and my friends MIL who died from cancer fairly young (and I never met) because their deaths are much sadder, even though I didn't have a relationship with them.

I do however agree with the hierarchy/circle to some extent - you can't be rigid or prescriptive about it, but there are unwritten rules there. You should definitely always lean on people further out from the middle of the circle. If my DH died, I wouldn't pile my grief onto either his (our) children or his mother, because that isn't fair. I wouldn't try and order her, mine and the children's grief though- I'd assume we were all in the middle of the circle.

I agree...you can't always know exactly who's where in the hierarchy but there is a loose pattern to this kind of thing.

I have a similar uncle. ..who used my FIL's terminal illness to have a go at me about religion because he was so upset by the whole thing. He may have been, but he was an acquantaince of FIL at best and had no business kvetching at me.