To ask those who voted for the conservatives ....

[ginorwine]

Reading the threads here there is much criticism about conservative policy .
A lot of people must have voted for them .
Where are they on mums net ?
And on threads such as those re the w t c cuts are they not representing their views as it was clear this would happen ?
I can tell that they may be slated but surley differing views can be expressed so long as it doesn't get nasty - a know that feeling run high but surley ppl can do so .
So to Tory voters -is it how you anticipated .what are your views ?

Most Tory policies seem to be based on jealousy.

OTheHugeManatee - best post ever. Stand-out insightful points.

Totally Agree. I love OTHM's work. Intelligent and insightful always.

OTHM - very well written balanced thoughts. Some very intelligent and as another poster said, insightful points. Thank you for sharing them.

*Also why would anyone spend years studying to be come a doctor and all the expense that brings with it if a Doctor only got paid a little more than a hospital cleaner

seriously you went there with the Cuba reduction*

WTF is the Cuba reduction.

I am just putting a serious question about why anyone would get themselves into debt to do a job that paid little more than a cleaner. In fact the cleaner wouldn't have the debt of a university education hanging over them. Unless of course the newly qualified Doctor was planning on moving abroad.

Have you not seen how much executive pay is and how badly some businesses have been run

I was asking how you would govern the pay of the self employed. Those people who aren't executives in offices in the city but plumbers, electricians, builders etc

I dont think anywhere we are saying that an unskilled job should be paid the same as a professional one. By 'cuba reduction' i mean where people say left wingers want wages to be like cuba, old russia etc where we all get paid the same.

So "The pay of some top earning FTSE 100 executives is more than 400 times the average salary of their staff" Seems fine to you?

blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2015/03/06/uk-chief-executive-pay-explained-in-charts/

I dont think there should be this low and high tax bands and it should be graded more.

"I was asking how you would govern the pay of the self employed"

Well much of that is governed by the market and or what insurances companies rates they will pay out to. The influx of semi skilled eastern Europeans is said to have brought down charges and hence their pay. These people are small fry in terms of tax.

Again I would rather see the £96 billion grants and tax breaks looked at first, and we take a bit more time before unpick the £12 billion in tax credits savings.

ExitPursuedByABear
From each according to his ability To each according to his need
Always a successful policy

Only if you're a Marxist which fortunately the vast majority of people in the country are not.

Thou could look into it youself BreakingDad

Here: blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2015/09/28/93bn-of-corporate-welfare-what-nonsense/

and Y

waitingfortax.com/2015/07/28/the-truth-about-the-truth-about-corporate-welfare/

Personally I don't bother to comment on the threads anymore as there is just SO much animosity. I've got very right wing political views and don't think I've ever been even a fraction as nasty to a left wing voter (who's views I really struggle to understand as I'm sure they do mine). The left (as a sweeping generalisation) bully, threaten, name call the right until we stop bothering to debate.

Then at an anonymous ballot the right sweeps the floor and people are surprised...because the left shouted louder ...

Yes, Joe. It's a amazing how the left (some of them) on here think they can behave and criticise even wet moderate Tories. They seem to think they have the moral high ground. Yet most people left or right have good hearts and want others to thrive. The left don't have some sainted halo of righteousness. In fact their views are wrong and damage the poor.

These people are small fry in terms of tax.

How much do you think plumbers and electricians etc earn I think you might be surprised. I know several who regularly take home good 6 figure salaries. have heard of some who earn £500k+ per year. I pay my builder more per month than my city working dh.

"WTF is the Cuba reduction. "

Simmering rum down into a syrup?

Sorry, sorry, v srs thread.

Now that I can understand.

I laugh at the thought of poor right wingers not bothering to post comment on threads which have debate on them. Lets go have a look at any benefit bashing or immigtation thread and you abound there.

We don't have halos or anything, but we don't say things about the poor kissing our feet, and we don't advocate cutting benefits when employers aren't going to rage wages for years. IF the £9 odd minimum wage was coming in now I wouldn't have much of a problem, but it isn't, and CIB et al are whinging about it massively already so I reckon it might not.

I also think that there are other things we can look at rather than cutting an arbitary £12 billion from the poorest.

The problem is longtime it just seems your just looking for an argument and are proving the point of the op, your ideas to look into alternatives have already been eloquently discussed by ohug and shown that whilst practical have proven to be at least ineffective (as in France), or could be spun to suit the right wing agenda and have further implications.

No one is suggesting you have halos, far from it and yet you still try and use divisive language that any opposing view is asking the 'poor to kiss there feet' you are proving yourself to be the a typical poster people have been referring to within this thread (understand I am also being slightly hypocritical with that last comment)

Whilst the 12bn may be 'arbitrary' and I would like to see the WTC issue reduced in a more linear fashion, it's not an either or scenario, and although it isn't as linear for the corporations they are slowly getting hit in the pocket as well.

The "poor kissing the feet" was made by another poster, i referenced it. I'm not here for an argument, I actually said: "IF the £9 odd minimum wage was coming in now I wouldn't have much of a problem" I genuinely wouldn't if people weren't going to be made worse off because of a political and idealogical goal. But

Osborne's pledge to run a permenant surplus has already been shown to be bunkum by economists, but we are driving towards this. Even the IFS have said that these cuts are too hard to fast, and usually the tories love IFS data, but for some reason have decided that this set of figures in not correct.

You just need to look at the other thread of TC cuts to see how the right are arguing this and the vindictive nature of the comments.

I believe in people being able to stand up for those worse off than themselves, and that's what I feel I do with some of my contribution on here. I do a hell of a lot more in real life. Thanks

By bringing comments made in other threads and making sweeping generalisations, whilst also trying to make some kind of moral high ground you are still kind of proving the point of the thread, even if you can't see it. (Honestly trying to be non confrontational)

I personally also make contributions and not only give personal time to those less fortunate than me by volunteering but actively recruit non academic but competent students into a career that will outpace many middle management careers, and yet I can still have different views and I wasn't the first one to virtue signal.

The 'political and ideological goal' is just politics, macro economists come in all flavours, krugman was largely ignored under the previous labour government when he was highlighting not only the housing bubble but state interference, corbyn's letter from economists has largely been discredited, and unfortunetly for you even though I don't fully agree with Tory policies I do trust them more(although I think cable[if unfettered] is the best we never had so what do I know)

I agree with you, the sudden reduction in WTC etc without automatically raising the minimum wage is not the best approach, what I'm saying is that even in the other threads not all opposition point of view is vindictive or spiteful, yes you get idiots, that can be applied to both sides.

Making broad brush statements about helping the poor is not only subjective but can have unintended consequences as highlighted by ohug, people have differing variations of how to help, no one side is automatically wrong (obviously excluding send them up the chimney type responses)

I'm not trying to be argumentative and my English is shit so I hope you get where my I'm coming from.

I do, but I disagree on the Tories are better at the economy narrative that is played on here. Osborne has borrowed more money than every Labour chancellor combined and achieved very low levels of growth in the real economy whilst boosting the city massively.

The political and ideological change that is going on is very much shock doctrine, pure and simple.

Oh and the bringing in things from other threads is fine if its used against the same poster, I reckon.

Just another lurker "The poor kissing their feet" comment came from Grazia And you know damn well it did because i pulled her up on it.

Yes but I said (and I don't have time to trawl the thread for exact words here) those of us who pay lots of tax, work 6 ot 7 days a week (I've been working today since 7am Sunday for example) do not expect and do not get the poor kissing our feet. That was one comment. I didn't say the poor shiould kiss our feet, did I? So why twist things out of context, unless the arguments are so poor people need to twist words to make points I suppose.

I suspect the main difference between left and right is that the right thinks people are helped by helping them to help themselves to a greater extent. That is why we give small loans to women in Africa where possible rather than large gifts to their husbands who piss it up the wall.

We need to save a lot of money. Tax credit costs have gone up from £1bn to £30bn a year. It is unsustainable when we have massive debts. Most people don't earn much so measures which increase tax for the very few rich people don't gain the state much money hence measures like stripping all child benefit from me/my children and all their cousins works because more people earn at that level so it saves the state more money.

"We need to save a lot of money. Tax credit costs have gone up from £1bn to £30bn a year. It is unsustainable when we have massive debts."

The National debt has been higher as a proportion of GDP for 169 of the last 169 years. Please stop propagating this myth. Every economic policy outlined by the Tories rests on it and its a false premise.

Yes Tax credits are a mess, yes they need reform but the reform to firms paying higher wages needs to come first, rather than dumping a whole load of people into penury. This counts directly against your "helping people to help themselves" mantra as it means more and more people will be in relative poverty and less able for themselves and their children to escape it.

This government have just signed deals with the Chinese that sell them our infrastructure, rather than investing money to build it ourselves, Germany (who have higher levels of debt as a proportion of GDP) would never do this, why was there money for quantitative easing which has boosted the stock market, and basically maintained the status quo that the banks had prior to 2008, but not for genuine job creation in terms of infrastructure spending? This would have not only boosted in economy in the short run but also the long run.

Why is there one rule for farmers ( who got bailouts in 2001 with foot and mouth) and bankers but another for steelworkers and the rest of the country?

Oh and I don't agree with cutting CB to families on higher incomes at all, the saving was minimal and it then brought in the them and us attitude we see on here now where people claim they get nothing so why should others get anything.

The policies of this government have actually been in favour of the wealthy, of the corporations, of those that own land and damm everybody else, all with this "we can't afford it" mantra going on in the world's 6th biggest economy.

Its a myth, yet half of MN buy into it and use it as a reason to cut down on policies that restore some kind of social justice. NHS cuts, Education cuts, Tax credit cuts, all the things that equalise our society just a little bit more are being cut in favour of policies that favour making the inequality gap larger and making real meritocracy a thing of the past.

Grazia, you preach this self help mantra, but if the gap is too big no one will be able to bridge it. YOU didn't just self help yourself, you were given support and aid, you had a society which helped you to do so. These cuts stop that from existing.

sorry 169 of the last 200 years that should have read as.

I think btw that tax credits have actually been a subsidy to large corporations and their profits, and for zombie firms which wouldn't operate otherwise.

I'll give you the example outlined by the manager of my local Sainsbury, he has around 40 staff. Most are on Tax credits, for Sainsbury this works well. They employ people for between 16 and 20 hours a week, they have a surplus of staff so when they need extras they can call them in, they pay less employers NI for two working part time than they would for one member of staff working full time, and the government pays for all this convinience by topping up the wages of the staff so they can afford to live, travel to work, feed their children.

People forget that its worked extremely well for firms, and most people (not all) have been trying to work in order to better their life chances not take advantage of the system, that has been the firms in most cases.

I would be interested to know how people who voted tory feel about the cuts to services. winchester are cutting 50 million plus from adult social care.... I assume they are not alone