to wonder why people send their children to private schools?

[TheStripyGruffalo]

People I know have done it for various reasons a) because they want their children to get all A* grade b) because they don't want their children mixing with the people at the local comprehensive and c) because they think it looks good to have children at a private school.

If you send your children private do you mind saying why? I'm genuinely interested (and I'm not a journalist). We didn't choose private schools because we thought our DC would not be comfortable being amongst the poorest families there.

Not sure if their 6th form takes transfers.

Backforthis, actually state schools can enter kids for any exam board they like and many have continued with igcse exams as well if they things it will suit their pupils better (eg state boarding schools with many non-native speakers). Exam boards stopped being 'local' in 1988 when they abolished CSE exams. The current exam boards are now large national businesses/charities.

BertrandRussell and M4, I do agree with you. Yes it was shit teaching (well shit school leadership probably) but as I have said it was our only option state-wise. The good teachers aren't any better in the private sector than good teachers in state sector, same for the bad ones. It does seem that the private schools may have an easier time of 'moving on' teachers who do not meet their expectations though.

Goldierocks, that school sounds dreadful. I wish more people, especially MNetters, would kick ass on governing bodies when they are so badly run.

maybe you forget that we are not choosing between perhaps an excellent state school which meets our children's needs and a private school for the sake of it.

Our choice boiled down to two schools which was a realistic travel option. One was better than the other for our DD. I think you have to look at each individual child to choose for them looking at what's available in that area. It's not as simple as private v state.

If parents have a good experience with a state school I can imagine they do not understand why you would look elsewhere. However not everyone has that great experience, so that does prompt people to look elsewhere. It's not so much as coming out with however many A*. However, for some courses, things are so tight and competitive dropping one grade might be enough for you to be unable to study your chosen subject.

maybe you forget that we are not choosing between perhaps an excellent state school which meets our children's needs and a private school for the sake of it.

No I didn't say you were. My state school was crap on paper btw. 35% GCSE pass rate, lots of crime, etc etc etc. I imagine many naice MC parents would have been horrified at the thought of their DC going there. My DSIS on the other hand goes to Greycoat's Hospital School which is obviously one of the best state schools in the country. She hates it because of its super-competitive, academics-are-everything mentality.

My point was - and I am sure I will get berated for this - I would, genuinely, rather my DC went to a "shit" school than a private school. Honestly.

It's not as simple as private v state.

No, as for a lot of parents as they simply can't afford private. Many people might say 'well that's not my problem', but, well....that's the whole point, isn't it?

No I didn't complain at the time as TBH I wasn't sure I had any right to, I did ask for advice on MN about the situation but in true MN style I was in the wrong for suggesting that firstly DS was bright and secondly that a state school/teacher was anything but amazing.

We had looked at the private school during YR as we realised DS was very academic at that stage and some friends suggested we looked, but it wasn't until Y1 that we applied for both DSs. We weren't actually intending on sending them as we didn't really want to send them to a private school and we hoped things would get better. We even had applied for infants for DS2 at the same state school but at the last minute turned the place down and sent him private from YR. Now I wish we had moved DS1 at the same time, but hindsight is a great thing.

Maybe not all top state schools or private schools are like that though. Those generalisations are no different that suggesting state schools are all inferior.

The point is that people should not have to be choosing state or private just to get a reasonable education for their children, GCSE results are not the be all and end all, there is so much information you need to know behind that data and there is so much manipulation from private schools so theirs is often meaningless but all children should have the opportunity to have an excellent education regardless of where they live.

Zany I think you and I probably agree actually, to clarify I certainly don't think all top states/privates are like that - but the risk of them being like that is much higher I think. I honestly wasn't trying to generalise. Like you say we can only go on our experiences.

all children should have the opportunity to have an excellent education regardless of where they live.

I absolutely agree with you. I think that all children should have the opportunity to have an excellent education regardless of where they live and their family background and wealth. The problem is that private schools do increase that divide between rich and poor, and between classes, and however I look at it I have a massive problem with that.

I admit I have been selfish about this, it is against my beliefs really but that wasn't enough that when push came to shove I went against what I believed. I was very vocal to my friends who sent their children to private schools or were considering it before my DCs were school age so I had to do an awful lot of humble backpedaling!

Part of me does silently judge some of the parents at some of the private schools, then I have to remember that is me also even if my views are somewhat different.

Lots of schools can be crap on paper but actually excellent for the individuals. Other schools can be great on paper but shit in reality, and of course there is everything in between.

A shit on paper secondary wouldn't bother me, however one that's shit in reality does. As others have said, private isn't about the end grades for me. I want my child to enjoy school, which won't happen if she's bored and frustrated for the next 5 years.

I think you are right about the manipulation of data. Basically if you are selective and manage to keep out anyone in receipt of Free School Meals or who speaks only rudimentary English on arrival, you are doing something wrong if you don't end up with excellent results, surely? That applies to both state and private schools.

I wonder what would happen if private schools were judged on the results of the local area rather than just their own? Do people think this might raise standards overall and minimise the difference the sectors? It is something I have often wondered about, social responsibility and all that.

maybee but only a tiny minority of children are in the private sector. The bigger injustice is the huge difference between state schools. I can think of some comprehensives that have far more in common with dds independent than they do with our local comprehensive. That is a far greater injustice.

Everybody's situations different maybe. You may be in a position to choose between two state schools.

Really? You would rather your child go to an awful state school than a private one, just because it's private? So when you realise your child perhaps misses out on a uni place to study something which she was very much wanting to do would you not feel a teeny bit guilty?

Schools are about more than academic results. There is a huge social side.

There was little organised social side to the state school, but much more in the private school.

"The problem is that private schools do increase that divide between rich and poor, and between classes, and however I look at it I have a massive problem with that."

No.

It is the appalling standards in so many state schools that increase the divide between rich and poor by not equipping every single British child with a great education for which we all pay a lot of tax.

"It is the appalling standards in so many state schools"

More children attend private schools in areas with outstanding and successful state schools than in counties where there are many coasting or poor schools.

My dc's comprehensive regularly churns out kids with huge clutches of a*s. The private school one hundred yards from it is massively over subscribed.

"keep out anyone in receipt of Free School Meals or who speaks only rudimentary English on arrival"

I hate this lumping together of DC on FSM and DC with EAL. They do not share equivalent disadvantages and DC with EAL do very well at school (better than DC with MT English) once all other factors have been controlled for.

mini all that proves is that more affluent areas have better state provision. Which demonstrates the point the state system is far more unfair than a tiny minority of the population going private.

Yes, without doubt the biggest gap is not between excellent independent day school and excellent comp. the biggest gap is between excellent comp and failing comp.

I think it's a kind of magical thinking "if I pay there's a better chance she'll be ok" kind of thing. Which I can empathise with to some extent.

Don't think you can buy your way to a happy and successful life though. My privately educated friends are in no way better or worse off than their state educated peers. I've seen nothing in my lifetime that persuades me that it's worth it. Anecdotally I know more people who came unstuck at private schools than state. Never came across drugs at my rural comp my friend at Ahem a very grand school you've all heard of was in a group that used daily. But that's just my view and experience.

when you really think however, those within good catchment areas most likely have educated parents who have been successful in studying. And then go on to have better jobs, on average, which buys the better house etc etc.

Ability has a proven genetic link. Concentration, interest in subjects, desire to learn possibly also. We are a product of our parents. it was interesting that those in the private school who,had parents at Cambridge, followed suit, those at RG ditto, and those who had made money elsewhere but were not university educated tended to have children who did not achieve as well.

I read some research somewhere that suggested that the type of school actually made a half a grade difference I think in a coup,e of subjects.

"mini all that proves is that more affluent areas have better state provision. Which demonstrates the point the state system is far more unfair than a tiny minority of the population going private."

No - it proves that good state provision is irrelevant to many people who choose private as education isn't the key issue when choosing their child's schooling.

As for it being a 'tiny minority' - in London it's 15%.

And if our doctors/CEO's/politicians weren't disproportionately educated in the private sector it wouldn't matter at all. I think it's a massive shame that many of those people whose job is to make important decisions which affect the lives of large numbers of others spent their formative years being educated in a system which basically runs along lines of social apartheid, meaning they have almost never had sustained, real and meaningful contact with ordinary people in any sort of social setting.

And before someone comes along bleating about bursaries and scholarships allowing 'ordinary' kids to attend private schools - well I know a good number of children on bursaries, and regardless of their parental income I wouldn't class ONE of them as 'ordinary'. All of them are incredibly bright and high achieving, all of them have had intense educational and social support from their parents, and all of them are marked out for success from early on. They could not be more different from the vast majority of children in state schools who will never get any special privileges granted to them because they're unusually clever.

all that proves is that more affluent areas have better state provision. Which demonstrates the point the state system is far more unfair than a tiny minority of the population going private.

To an extent, this is one of those endless circles. When I was doing teaching practise back in the 1990s, I was put in a "sink" school in Coventry. The school had a terrible reputation and therefore MC parents did not want their children to go there. Consequently, it was the school with spaces for things like exclusions, consequently people did not want their children to go there. In the end, it closed down.

DH and I have been looking at local schools for our DTDs. We looked at a grammar (the "top state school in the country"), our local comp, and then, as a teacher, I was able to compare it to the school in which I teach, which is not in an affluent area and had 40% PP students, which is more than double the average for the county (just over 16%) I am convinced that the two we looked at, who made a lot of noise about their results at GCSE and A Level, are living by their intake. Certainly the grammar needs to be doing something very wrong if it's not getting A* grades out of all its students. Similarly, the comp is in a very MC area and educational research has proved for years that the biggest factor in a child's success is parental engagement, not the type of school a child goes to, and it's indisputable that a professional working parent with a 9-5 job has more time to engage with their child after school than a parent working shifts or doing two jobs to make ends meet.

State provision is not better in areas which are more affluent - the intake makes the difference. There was nothing at either the grammar or the high-achieving comp that doesn't also happen at my school, but the outcomes, in terms of A*-C are vastly different. My school is under subscribed, despite the fact that it is a lovely, small, friendly school with fantastic facilities and the kids are generally very happy. Parents don't give us a chance - reputation is everything.

Mini, good state provision was indeed irrelevant to me. But not because I don't care about education or because my reasons were to socially manipulate my children's peers. It was because, in 25yrs of teaching all over the country I have yet to come across a state school, however good they are either on paper it in reality, that can provide the all singing all dancing bells and whistles I want, and get, from my children's independent school. They simply cannot afford to provide it.