AIBU to tell you it is not illegal to take your child out of school to go on holiday

[Pseudonym99]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-34543101

But apparently not nickifury there are no need for legalities when every term time holiday is a cornucopia of amazing learning opportunities which renders the carefully prepared hour by hour teaching and learning relationship prepared by usually underpaid teachers and support staff unnecessary for students growth. In light of this all term time leave should be granted??

Have you read the thread?

Yes I have, I believe that the fact that 39 weeks a year of "free" education (I do know this is paid for by taxation of course) has led to this being widely thought of as a right and not as a hard fought for privilege. Obviously this is only my opinion and I accept others views. My children will always attend attend school unless they are unwell or an exceptional circumstance renders them unable to.

Strongly agree with the people who think that taking kids out of school is wrong.

On a personal level, we feel that taking them out engenders an attitude that we don't have to do something if we don't want to. Sometimes we have to do thing.

There are 13 weeks of the year for kids to gain 'cultural' experiences. It may be that you are unable to afford a foreign holiday; this is a want, not a need. And who's want is it? I feel that what most kids want out of a holiday is time with their family and a chance to do fun things with them. Which can be done cheaply.

We have good jobs and a decent income. We cannot afford a foreign holiday in holiday time. So we don't go. It is not a right. We had a wonderful time camping in Wales this year and intend to do similar next year. You cut your cloth to suit your means. And the kids gained so much 'culturally' too! They loved the opportunity to explore castles, beaches, etc etc. I must admit that this is a reason for not doing masses of holiday homework though; mine were far too busy having a lovely time to do homework, and I think they learned far more doing this, and gained so much from spending time with us.

And on a wider level, I can totally see how disruptive to the rest of the class this is, and on the child's education. My son was unfortunately quite poorly and needed an operation recently and needed time off school. He hated missing work as he felt that he was behind. I was so grateful for the teachers helping him to catch up.

Anyway, rant over! Clearly there are circumstances where people genuinely can't get time off in the holidays (eg servicemen and women) but these are few and far between.

Mummy she had them to go on holiday - 2 weeks every term and an extra week for a wedding. Dad just pays the fines

Shebird made a very good point earlier on. All the tinkering around with education, huge numbers of experienced teachers leaving the profession, under resourcing for children with SEN etc. etc. all affect your child's day to day learning far more than a week away with family would.

As a teacher I can honestly say that I have never seen a week off causing detriment to a child's education (their own, or the rest of the class) if they have otherwise supportive parents.

There really are far more serious concerns to have over education in this country at the moment.

There really are far more serious concerns to have over education in this country at the moment.

www.theguardian.com/education/2014/may/27/new-school-commissioner-plan-all-schools-academies

This, for example.

Mummy and Aunty- if you take children out of school to go on holiday the message to them is clear. School doesn't matter that much- holidays matter more.
I totally agree with those referring to the 13 weeks of holiday available each year. Go then. If you can't afford holidays abroad then, go in this country or stay at home and fill your days with local cultural experiences.
There is no reason to take a child out of school at all.

If there are more serious problems why add another one?

In the first case, in the news, the father had 1000 to spend on court he could have used towards a holiday at another time. He chose an expensive holiday, when they could probably have had one for the same price out of term in a cheaper location.
And I agree that it sends the wrong message to children, that it's their choice whether to attend school or not. How will you justify it if they don't want to go at other times and they feel they have better things to do? And not all parents are supportive and it still puts extra pressure on the children to then catch up with their peers, even supportive parents and if it doesn't put pressure on the teachers.
I teach, albeit adults, and if they can't be arsed to attend classes to go on holiday then they get little sympathy in the way of extra support.

I wonder what parents would think if a teacher went on holiday term time because it's cheaper for them and left children without a teacher for a week or two.

I don't buy the "cultural experiences" argument, but there are other perfectly valid reasons why term time holidays might be the best solution for a particular family - important family events, inability of parents to get leave during school holidays.

The best solution is surely to leave this to the discretion of head teachers, as was the case in the past? The teachers involved are far better placed to assess the impact of missing school on an individual child, and to appreciate the constraints that particular families may have to contend with.

Blanket rules about absense lead to ridiculous situations, like (example from my friendship group) the parent of an infant school child who had missed some school due to his brother being hospitalised repeatedly with cancer-related complications receiving threatening letters :-/

I can see both sides but I do think we need to be careful about the messages we send our children. In life there are rules, and unfortunately we have to follow them. I am not sure it matters if its the HT or the LA setting the rule. In my experience of headteachers, changing it back to the HT discretion wont mean those holidays are granted. The headteachers I know have fairly robust views on term time holidays.I don't believe that people are cross because of a so called nanny state, they are cross because their holiday wasn't authorised.
I managed a service a few years ago, the rule was no two staff of the same grade could take AL at the same time. This rule was explained in induction, frequently discussed in team meetings etc. At least once or twice a year I would have people coming to me saying they needed a particular week off, when I pointed out that someone else had already been allocated this week, the usual refrain was ‘but its already booked‘. They were always astounded when I wouldn't budge.

It just makes me slightly uncomfortable when we say to our children I think this rule is rubbish so it doesn't apply to me.

misti it was HT Unions whom lobbied and support the change. Their members were increasingly subject to abuse, and in some cases violence, when they refused to authorise for whatever Reason what was considered by many parents to be a right.
As the OP proves, many parents believe they know better than the HT.

Heads still have the legal discretion not to issue fines, but can no longer authorise the absence - it makes you wonder why it was considered necessary to fine in the case highlighted in the OP.

Just wondering why he wasn't also fined for his other, privately educated, daughter missing the same amount of time?

The law does not exclude independent schools it states:

(1)If a child of compulsory school age who is a registered pupil at a school fails to attend regularly at the school, his parent is guilty of an offence.

Source: www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/56/section/444

If you're going to enforce a law it needs to done fairly.

If you're going to enforce a law it needs to done fairly.

But that contradicts what others are saying which is that it should be judged on a case by case basis.
If one DC has missed a lot of school through illness, to the extent that further absence would do further damage to their progress, but another has 100% attendance, then if the HT has discretion, should they both be authorised?

But it is not judged on a case by case basis.

Common sense should prevail in all things.

One size rule does not fit all.

Our children aren't empty vessels to be filled to the brim. A happy, healthy, well rounded, kind, thoughtful child who retains his natural curiosity Is what to attain for. Not the grades and stupid stars they have to shed blood, sweat and tears for.

Too much of my childhood was given over to three hours homework every night and a blasted essay to do on weekends. Years I will never get back. I don't think I've read another classic book since I was 18 and had to dissect all those gawd damned core books for my english A level. That was nearly 50 years ago and I was an avid reader.

Three of my six school age grand children are home educated and believe me their childhood is utopian compared to mine. They are all highly intelligent and as bright as buttons. The eleven year old taught himself to read. There's no schedule or fixed lessons. They learn as they go along, what they want and when they want. Yes, shock horror after 3 pm and weekends too.

Sadly it's not financially possible for more families to do this but certainly it's the way to go if you want more flexibility in how you want your child educated and it gives you the freedom to come and go as you wish.

I also think we push children into education at too young an age in this country. My son was only 4 and a half when he started school. What was I thinking of. Well looking back with hindsight , he'd had a lot of operations and although he was reading before he went to school, emotionally he was just not ready . He struggled all his school life.

Anyway that's another debate.

Unfortunately for teachers they have to sweat blood for those grades as well. Their pay and jobs depend on them. A teacher whose classes don't achieve their targets can find themselves on capability and out of the door fairly quickly nowadays.
(I'm not saying a week's holiday taken in primary is likely to have this result though)

I think parents who can clearly demonstrate a need - not a want- to take a holiday in term time should have thst holiday authorised but the law doesn't allow that now.

Not the grades and stupid stars they have to shed blood, sweat and tears for.

I don't expect my child to get too stressed over grades. I just expect him to do his best and have a happy childhood.
But I don't want him to miss classes either or think that school is less important than a holiday (particularly one as important as Disney whatever).

But it is not judged on a case by case basis

Yes. It is. HT judge on a case by case basis whether to authorise a request for absence and whether to fine if the absence is unauthorised.

Why are holidays always "the beach" or "Disney" on these threads? It shows how narrow your perceptions are really. Obviously there's a Certain Kind Of Person that takes their child out for term time holidays isn't there?

I take mine out because they're both autistic and one has a number of other conditions and I am a lone parent. I'd be lucky if they'll sit on a beach for more than 20 minutes. Our holidays are mainly in the Middle East visiting family. The HT at dd's school seems to be very understanding of my situation. My friend is taking her child out next term, he too has additional needs. The school is fine with that too.

To say as previous posters have said that there is never a reason to take a term time holiday shows a real lack of consideration and awareness for issues that others face. No news there though.

I was referring to the case in the OP

"The 44-year-old took his seven-year-old daughter to Disney World in Florida after her school refused permission for the eight-day trip." (quote from the Mirror)

I'm sure it was highly educational and the family time couldn't have taken place in any other setting.

"He took his daughter, seven, on an eight-day holiday to Disneyworld in Florida in April, for which he said she was absent from school for six days."
Quote from The Guardian, just in case.

I cannot get upset about a week off school for a week at Disney in the whole of one childhood. And personally if it meant not going at all because it couldn't be afforded any other time then I too would prioritise it

My point was; why is the law not being applied equally across state and private education?

Do you really think that is ok SouthAmericanCuisine? You are so strongly in favour of the law being upheld in state school, why not in independent schools?

This is going a bit off topic ... My DC is Under the EWO. To make it clear we have never had a holiday during school term time bar one day last feb half term I took him out on the friday to travel because the train prices are far far cheaper miday friday than any time on a saturday. It was our first ever holiday in 4 years. (yes, it is a money issue for some of us to take time out in term time.)

We have the EWO involved and have to prove every single day he has had off school. He is under several DRs and professionals and as a result he has Drs appointments during the day. I cannot book these appointments any other time because that would mean waiting another 3 weeks to see a specialist. The specialist clinics we attend are only open from 9am-4pm During school time.

His school give me constant grief and demand I prove where he is. I flat out refuse to hand over letters detailing who he is seeing and what the reason is to prove he has an appointment because I am not happy they photocopy these letters and I do not know where they end up. My child's medical history is private and should not be shared like that!

My own GP have a sign up in the surgery that they will not give letters to prove absences because it is an invasion into patient privacy and they will not detail the conditions a patient is being seen for nor when.

I have taken to blanking out parts of the letter with post-its leaving just our address and time of the appointment and photocopying it myself. The school are not happy about this. The EWO knows he has medical problems that are seen by a variety of specialists yet I still get visits every 4ish weeks to find out why he isn't in school.

The last time was for D&V. GP would not see him for obvs reasons. School demanded proof. I offered to send them a photograph of the contents of the toilet bowl. Last I have heard about it and on his last attendance record that date was authorised as illness.

My point is, This constant hounding of parents over attendance, esp parents with children who have SN or SEN isn't helping anyone. My DC is made to feel shitty his class never wins the attendance shield - its his fault according to other kids because he has these Drs appointments. The constant change in lessons for practising school plays or training kids for exams isn't really learning imo and I'm sure teachers on here will agree some of the exams are bollocks and should be scrapped.

When it comes to my DC and his attendance (87% last year but that inc days he was 5 mins late which skews the result) he has a tutor to fill in the parts he misses (we battle and I am all for outsourcing for reduced stress)