To not want to hear anything about the suffragettes

[BrandNewAndImproved]

How am I meant to support a movement that was disgustingly racist just because I benefit from it being a white female.

The feminist movement is still subtly racist with a lot of white feminists refusing to see white privilege.

The argument of being of its time doesn't wash. Racism is racism and I refuse to support it.

I suspect that that was Madge's point.

I agree, but apparently not everyone does.

it would be good to have a nuanced view of the past.

After Britian reduced and stopped supplying Black slaves, (which is what was asked for) the US continued to get them from Portuguese suppliers, it wasn't only the British.

I understand this, but I was trying to point out that the history of slavery in the US is not just US history. When slavery was established in what is now the United States, it was established in what were British colonies. Slavery in the US is also part of British history.

Most African Americans in the US have British surnames. Where do you suppose these came from?

Chipping if you are still going on about my dalai lama joke then you really are finding a bun fight. If you knew anything about him you would know there's a long running joke that he sees the grey in every black and white situation and can't ever make up his mind.

I take your point Buffy, I did say before in general women hold women to a higher standard then men. That's entrenched in us in society. It goes back to real feminist issues like childcare. Society feels sorry for dc in full-time childcare and blames mothers for not wanting to stay home but we never mention the fathers in this!

The name's Chipped. You seem to make a habit of getting things spectacularly wrong on this thread OP don't you.

Bit chippy.......

I understand this, but I was trying to point out that the history of slavery in the US is not just US history.

But when we are talking about British suffragettes, surely we should just stick to British suffragettes and not drag American suffragettes into the discussion?

My comment was about people not realising that the suffragette movement in the UK is different to that in the US and the problems caused by putting US history into it. The result is the quote being taken totally out of context.

Most African Americans in the US have British surnames. Where do you suppose these came from?
The same place the white slaves we supplied to the other parts of the world's names came from.
in the US the term slavery brings up Black Slaves, because that's what was supplied / demanded. But to the UK, as horrible as it is, took and brought people from anywhere we could, so it’s not so ingrained to be “Black slave trade” even though it mostly was.

In the US, the term is generally suffragists, not suffragettes, by the way.

It seems to be very fashionable at the moment to denigrate people/movements because it turns out they are nuanced and imperfect. I find it difficult myself. Meryl Streep was criticised for describing herself as a humanist instead of a feminist, because lots of women felt let down by her. I get that. So I get that it's possible to look at the Suffragettes and feel disappointed that, from our perspective, they weren't the perfect, inclusive movement we would like them to be. But it's silly and immature to discount all of their contributions because of their imperfections. It's perfectly reasonable to identify their incredibly important role in history, and then to ask what we can do to take that next step to make things even better.

and a woman's place is always in the wrong.
Feminists are consistently subject to far greater scrutiny and criticism tham most other campaigning groups.
Got to keep us in our place.

I'm so grateful to those suffragettes. We go on demonstrations now, but imagine what they went through:
Beaten up, forcefed, groped - and I wonder what worse assaults were hidden
Even a few murdered.

How many of us would have their courage ?
Think of something comparable. How many of us would say dare to demonstrate in Saudi Arabia for womens' rights ?

I've seen a few people 'put the quote in context', well to give it further context Pankhurst also said that women’s lack of the vote had “grown the most appalling slavery, compared with which negro slavery falls into insignificance.”
Couldn't be much more racist than that! Suffragettes obviously helped women but that's not to say they weren't racist too.

That quote was criticised by some other suffragettes at the time.

I can quote appalling statements that some feminists in the media have said. Tat does not mean that all feminists agree with them.

the full quote from the speech is
I know that women, once convinced that they are doing what is right, that their rebellion is just, will go on, no matter what the difficulties, no matter what the dangers, so long as there is a woman alive to hold up the flag of rebellion. I would rather be a rebel than a slave. I would rather die than submit;and that is the spirit that animates this movement…..I mean to be a voter in the land that gave me birth or they shall kill me, and my challenge to the Government is: kill me or give me my freedom: I shall force you to make that choice.
I was unable to find the other bit about 'slavery falling into insignificance'

You're absolutely right OP we should not celebrate the suffragettes at all.

Nor should we make films about Martin Luther King or JFK because they were philanderers. And while we're at it let's protest against Mandela because he was a terrorist in his early days. Killed more people than Pankhurst ever did. Mmmmm and what about Mahatma Gandhi who was a massive slut shamer.....

Oh wait.. they're men aren't they and men are allowed to be nuanced. It's only women that have to be beyond reproach in order to prove themselves worthy of our admiration (or basic human rights)

I haven't even given an opinion on half of those names you've called out they, and I personally dislike gandhi for his slut shaming and racist bullshit.

I've also said upthread about the sexist crap from the civil rights movement and as for mandala I actually do respect him.

Since your so interested in my views on topics unrelated to this thread.

Pankhurst also said that women’s lack of the vote had “grown the most appalling slavery, compared with which negro slavery falls into insignificance.”
Can anyone of you knowledgeable posters direct me to the speech that contains this quote - was it one she made to the American suffragettes?
I have tried google and it does not feature under her well known speeches.

Everyone is, and always has been flawed.

I dont know about the suffragettes being racist. I assumed they were a feminist movement. I wouldnt have expected them to have every single suffragettes moral code in line with those of today. I think if those suffragettes were around today, they wouldnt have been racist

Well OP if you refuse to support female's rights and overall emancipation, then don't do so. BUT really don't predicate that choice on the back of a(n) historical, now redundant argument. To do so makes you look uncleverly disingenuous and a bit stupid.

YABU (and grotesquely ignorant).

YABU, previous posters have explained why.

I'd love to see an OP willing to change their minds on one of these threads

God this op is depressing

If the OP asked

"Would I be unreasonable not to see Suffragette due to the Unbearable Smugness of Carey Mulligan ?" that would be entirely reasonable.

But as that wasn't the question I'm with the majority. I agree with squidzin- one of the worst ops in a long time.

think this blog may clarify the 'quote' which was an unverified mention in a book
sorry for a link
www.awardsdaily.com/blog/2015/10/oscarwatching-in-the-era-of-outrage/