DB/SIL- Wills and lending money. Have had enough- AIBU?

[jacks11]

I know, another BIL/SIL thread. This will probably be long, as it let's me vent!

my df very unwisely let slip to my brother the conditions of DF&DM's will (and he has acknowledged that he was extremely foolish to have done so). Now all hell has let loose as DB and SIL are "furious".

I have said to DB that, ultimately, our parents have the right to bequeath their assets in whatever way they see fit as far as I'm concerned. He wants me to "do something about it". I think the will is up to our parents, and I can see why my parents have done things this way. My inclination is to keep out of it.

The issue here is that due to my brother's problems, some still on-going, and both his and SIL's complete inability to manage money (it burns a hole in their pocket as soon as they get it, they are always in debt etc), my parents felt it would be best that his share be put into a trust. DB could draw money from this trust for certain things which would need approval of the trustees but will not have the money "cash in hand" so to speak. We will get equal shares. My share will not be held in trust.

This was done partly because my parents want to protect DB from himself and ensure that, if nothing else, the money is used (as far as they can ensure) wisely and to his benefit. As opposed to "pissed up the wall" or spent on rubbish/short-term "luxury" indulgence, which is what undoubtedly would happen (and has happened with DB's redundancy money in the past). Also, DM says she feels that she and DF have worked hard for what they have and don't want to see it wasted.

DB has a son and a step-son who is several years older. Our parents have left a reasonable sum to both my DD and the younger DN (to be held in trust for them until they are 21 years but can be accessed earlier for specified purposes, such as education). They have also left a (smaller) sum to DBs Step-son. SIL is very angry about this, but my parents feel he could/will inherit from both sets of his own grandparents so doesn't need a 3rd inheritance. They feel they are leaving an acknowledgement that he is a part of their family by bequeathing him something. I can see both sides of this, but come down on the side that he does have 2 other sets of grandparents to inherit from. SIL is angry as she says my parents are likely to leave far more than her parents or her ex-IL's and her son will be disadvantaged. DB/SIL are also still very angry about another inheritance (my grandmother)- long story and previous thread about this. Suffice to say DB did something very horrible to DGM, he did not apologise or acknowledge what he did was wrong and as a result was cut out of her will. I was not.

DB hurled a tirade at me on the phone yesterday. I asked him to stop, he didn't so I said I wasn't willing to discuss it any further with him until he could apologise and then act in a civilised manner and hung up. He rang back and did the same, so I did the same. He has now sent me a very angry email suggesting I "put them up to it". Which is ridiculous, as our parents are not a vulnerable, frail elderly couple who could be easily pressurised or bamboozled into changing their will- they are perfectly capable people. They have done this because they feel it's the right thing to do. I have known about the will for a while, but I have had no input into their decision. He also kept ranting on about how unfair it is that I have x, y, z and he and his family don't. The disparity between us is not due to inheritance- I earn more than he does (and had to work hard to get where I am), so I don't see it as unfair. It is not my fault that he has the job (and income) he has- that's down to him (and SIL).

Then today he emailed (no apology) to say they have some financial problems and could I please lend them money! He has requested a sum I could afford to lend. However, they have still to repay money I leant them a number of years ago (they promised to pay back in instalments and have not paid back a single penny). I have asked them about it in the past, but they get evasive or "did you really want it back?" (yes, that's why we discussed how much you could afford to pay back per month) or " but then DN's would suffer as we're so skint at the moment". TBH, I have written off that loan but made a note never to lend to them under any circumstances. Apparently, our parents have also declined to lend them any more money. SIL text me to say she couldn't believe we would let them down in this way, and leave them to struggle on and leave "the boys to go without".

My AIBU is that I think this really is the last straw. I am not going to lend them money and I have had enough of DB /SIL and their drama, trouble-making, scheming and manipulation. Their financial problems are not my responsibility and I hate the attempt at guilt-tripping me into giving them money by using their boys. I have as little contact as possible, but I just think now that the only times I want to see him and his wife are at family gatherings when I don't really have a choice. They bring nothing but aggravation to my life. AIBU?

Is this the brother who stole from his grandmother to feed a drug habit?

Not sure I'd be happy about my hard earned cash wasted by him, either. Definitely don't lend him any more, Op, and steer well clear.

YANBU and neither are your parents.

Don't lend them any more money and if your brother/sil continue to blame you for they're own mistakes I would go NC.

I'm NC with what would be my oldest brother(can't call him my brother the word sticks in my throat where he's concerned)his partner and all of his adult children.Best thing we ever did.

He's the black sheep in our family and so is his partner and his children.But that was all they're own doing,useing people,lying,cheating,bringing problems to my parents door,never sorting out they're own messes expecting the rest of us to put up with all they're crap and all that entailed.

My parents had given up on them all and so as most of the rest of the family.

Sadly your brother and sil sound the same,unless they're willing to accept that the things that have gone wrong for them are they're own doing and they're willing to appologize and change they're behavior there's not much you can do.

If they've caused so much hassle they should be greatful they're even in the will.

I'm not normally one to advocate doing anything which would inflame a situation, but in your shoes OP I would be very tempted to ring them back, tell them the only reason they are in the financial position they now find themselves in is down to their own poor money management and choices and that you won't be guilt tripped into giving them money they have no intention of repaying as they have made no effort to repay the last 'loan'.

I would send him an email, quote this part of your OP

our parents are not a vulnerable, frail elderly couple who could be easily pressurised or bamboozled into changing their will- they are perfectly capable people. They have done this because they feel it's the right thing to do. I have known about the will for a while, but I have had no input into their decision.

reiterate, the will it NOTHING to do with you, if they have a problem, talk to parents not you.

Then add, that you are not able to lend them money as they never paid back the previous loan, and you are not in a position to give money away.

Then do not send any other emails. If they continue to contact you, either ignore, or just keep sending them this email again and again.

If you were felling brave you might include a link to a helpline to help them with financial management/budgeting.

I'm not sure if e-mail back would inflame the situation or not.

If you did I would point out what your parents do in their will with their money isn't any of your business or under your control.

That your parents are still with you and things may yet happen before they die - obvious ones being care home costs - that mean there could well be nothing to inherited. Care home costs are high the need for them can be gradual or sudden and lengthy stays will deplete even big coffers. So arguing about it now is both distasteful and pointless.

I'd state that you are not in a position to lend money - and not explain or move from that point of view.

Then I'd state even if you were in such a position , which you are not, given last time you did this that they made no effort to stick to the agreed repayments and have still failed to pay any of it back you'd be very wary about lending money to them in the future.

Then I'd end with you are sorry they are having financial problems. However this is nothing to do with you - that you have your own commitments and responsibilities to meet - and can't take on theirs as well.

Perhaps point them in direction of final help such as the CAB in the their area.

Be polite but distant and avoid contact for while/ forever.

If you parents do set up a trust make sure you are not involved in any way - like taking on role of trustee. Get it independent of you.

Plus shout at your DH - he shouldn't be talking about other people's will or financial stuff especially to relatives likely to kick off.

YANBU - it's not your will, you haven't told DB about situation as you understand it your DH did - and you already lent them money and not got it back and are under no obligation to do it again. Everyone elses behaviour is causing you grief - not surprised you've had enough.

I have a DB like this. Total entitled knobhead.

Email him telling him it's up to them whether they leave it to a cats home or burn the lot to keep warm.

lost's approach is a much better, more measured one than my suggestion. I am angry on your behalf OP. Where the hell do these awful people get off?

Your inheritance should also be put in a trust. Surely, being so much better with money than your brother, you wouldn't object to that as you wouldn't be spending it on anything unsuitable anyway?

alltouchedout makes a great suggestion, its the same amount of money, if they also put yours in trust it stops the whole argument in an instant.

Simple no to lending money, state that as they didn't keep up their repayment plan before.

But the OP isn't the one deciding to set up trusts or not alltouchedout. That is up to her parents.

One of my Uncle made demands about what my GP did with his inheritance - he wanted it paid directly into a family trust already had for tax reasons as estate was being was wound up. It was complicated so don't know in and outs - and was across two countries tax/inheritance laws.

GP were most put out that he asked this of them - very upset and offended actually. It was though very rude and presumptuous despite him knowing he was getting a share in their current will.

I think GP did after pressure look at it but decided they didn't want the hassle and didn't want cost or hassle of making changes to a will they were happy with.

He was just left a share of the estate which was what GP wanted to do.

If they'd spent years in care homes instead of last 18 ish month of their lives there wouldn't have been anything to left to inherited.

I think such a suggestion would have to come from the GP not the OP as it's their money and their will - but I suppose that does depend on the family dynamics.

Absolutely do not lend them any more money.

In fact the only contact I would have with them would be to ask them, formally, to pay you back the money you've already lent them. (Did you have any agreement on that one or was it all done 'in the family'?) Otherwise I'd block their email addresses and phone numbers. (And I'd still do that if they didn't respond satisfactorily to the repayment request or if you received another tirade which wasn't related.)

Do not lend him any money, just reply when it's brought up again that you haven't been paid back from the last load.
That your parents decisions are theirs and not yours

Have you posted before about this brother and your DGM? It definitely rings a bell.

Do NOT lend money. They sound incredibly bitter that you have more money than them. I think your parents are being sensible. He will be lucky to get anything at this rate!

Your grabby SIL is a joke. How dare she kick up because her son is getting less and she thinks your parents have more money than her sons DGPs so he won't get as much. As he isn't actually your parents DGS she is very lucky that they are thinking of him in any way.

Stick to your guns, block their numbers and emails and have no more to do with them except for mutual gatherings. They bring nothing to your life except misery.

Yanbu to lend them nothing further and stay well out of it. Warn your parents that the trust might be ineffective but I think ultimately it's ineffective anywAy. Say your parents sanction the down payment buying of a house with the money, what's to stop them doing future equity release and whizz ing the money away anyway?

I'd say to your bro that he should prove DPs wrong and show them he can behave responsibly and get himself out of debt first... Starting with you!!!

I think you've lost your first loan to them.. Don't throw good money after bad.

Don't lend them any more money. The relationship sounds like it is barely limping along in any event - helping them out won't suddenly make them into reasonable people who treat everyone around them with respect.

In relation to the will, I'd refuse to discuss it. We have a similar situation in our extended family. One sibling and their spouse are completely incapable of not spending every penny that comes into their hands, no matter how bad their ongoing financial situation. They have young children and have been bailed out on multiple occasions by parents and siblings. They've probably had upwards of £10,000 over the last few years, and not a penny has ever been repaid. If you gave them £5,000 tomorrow, they wouldn't pay their bills - they'd go on a luxury holiday and then complain about how unfair it is that they couldn't pay their rent when they got back.

Anything that is left to them will be in a trust as it is the only way to make sure that there is money for essentials, and that other family members won't have to keep bailing them out forevermore.

While it's true that trusts can sometimes involve unwelcome control, it seems clear your parents have excellent reasons for doing what they have. As PPs have said, tell him to take it up with them and ignore suggestions that you put them up to it - like the hackneyed thing about making the kids suffer, it sounds as if they've taken a course in whingeing and entitlement

Forget, too, any idea of loans, but I wouldn't offer reasons which they'll only argue with; sometimes a simple "no" is best. Quite apart from the issue that you'd never get it back, they'd certainly be back all the time with demands for yet more ... people have been unfaaaaiiirrr to them, you see, and they think it's your job to put it right

To those who have asked, no I will not be a trustee. I would have to be mad to agree to that. The reasons for money being released will be set by the terms of the trust is my understanding of things (i.e. the trustees will only be able to release funds for set things) so not some arbitrary criteria. At least, that is my understanding of it all.

I can see how people might think it's controlling of our parents- and I suppose in a way it is. To be fair to them, I think my parents want to try and protect him and to make sure DB does not just waste it leaving him with nothing. Because if previous behaviour is any indicator, he is likely to do that- he wasted redundancy money which they needed for bills etc. They just aren't good at planning or saving. My brother also has a history of poor control of money, gambling, addiction- to the point where it would have cost him everything if our parents had not bailed him out. Then he went and ran up more debt, which he fully expected them to bail him out of as well. SIL is not much better and had a trust deed/IVA due to debt. I know some will think I am being superior and condescending here, but this is what has happened in the past.

all

If that's what they wanted to do with my share, it wouldn't bother me. I don't plan my life around money that I may or may not inherit (who knows what care costs etc may arise as parents get older, for example).

I think your parents are being very sensible tbh.
Your brother has a history of gambling addiction? Surely they are just trying to protect him from himself?
Telling him was idiotic though and has put you in a Very difficult position. Can your parents tell him that it's nothing to do with you and their decision?
Please do not lend him any money. He obv has no respect for you, and you won't get it back :(

Crapbag (and others)

Yes, some brother (and SIL).

To the poster who asked about their plans to holiday with me, they did not come (but moaned frequently about it). which was the lesser of the evils, so it's fine

Badders

I agree DF (not DH as other posters were saying) was extremely foolish to tell him. Although I can also see that not telling him at all, just letting him found out at the will reading wouldn't be great either.

DB and DF were having an argument (about lending money) and I think DB had said something about what he would do when he had more money. DF snapped back "no, you won't actually" sort of thing. All very stupid, they are both old enough to know (and act) better.

DM is furious with DF, who is well aware he has not acted sensibly.

Their children are not your responsibility, no matter how much you love them. They alone are responsible for providing for their own children. They sound as if they have come to rely on other people bailing them out and it means they never had to control their own spending. They need tough love.

It's a difficult situation for you.
I also think your point is very valid. It could ALL go on care fees. The will is only valid whilst there is an estate to distribute. My mum re did her will after my dads death and has made me, and both my siblings executors. I am her POA.
Everything is split 3 ways.
However, I expect nothing. I expect it to all go on care.

Jacks I agree it may have been better not to tell the DB about the trusteeship, but he was always going to scream and stamp - all it's done is brought it forward, though I realise that's not ideal either

Also agree that your parents' bailout (and the fact he expected more) makes all the difference ... not that I thought they were unwise in doing this anyway

OP, your brother sounds very similar to my BIL, though hopefully not as bad, as I think my BIL is quite extreme.

BIL is hopeless with money, always in debt, hardly ever pays any of his bills, never paid a penny in child maintenance, racks up fines from fare dodging on trains etc. and has hardly ever held down a job for any length of time. Money burns a hole in his pocket and he is incapable of being sensible with it. Spends extravagantly and is always broke.

He is the youngest of three, and relied heavily on MIL to keep bailing him out right up until her final few months when she was very very ill an no longer able. She always did, too.

Some years before that he had tried to lean on MIL to amend her will so that he would inherit her house rather than it being split three equal ways. It was the only thing MIL ever stood firm with him about, and she refused.

In the weeks running up to her death he let slip that he was considering moving in there, thus preventing or stalling the sale an effectively disinheriting his siblings for as long as possible.

We changed the locks to thwart him there (illegal I know, as he owned an equal third, but what else were we to do?).

My DH was executor of the will. He and his sister fell out with BIL big time over it. They have been no contact with him since they divided up the proceeds of the sale three equal ways.

To be frank, my DH has been far more relaxed since cutting contact with BIL. You should consider it perhaps?

I think your parents are doing the right thing, though I am not sure how enforceable a trust is where an adult is concerned. They have the measure of your brother and at least aren't in denial about it.

I'll wish you luck going forward. I've a feeling you could need it.