to think 5yr old shouldn't be taught creationism in a state school?

[sparklewater]

Exactly that really. Our primary is not supposed to have any religious leaning at all - but the headmistress is quite religious and so we have close ties with the local church etc. That's fine, community spirit, etc.

However, I keep finding out little things - such as saying Amen at the end of assembly (which suggests there has been a prayer) and that the weekly singing assembly is hymn-based. Yesterday, dd suddenly started telling me how the world began (with God saying let there be light, apparently) and said that God is everyone's father.

I've tried to explain it's just one option but WIBU to talk to the school?

"Implanting a religious belief that wasn't there before is unacceptable."

this ^^

Keep - no one is trying to 'forbid children to have an imagination', the trouble comes when these stories are presented as fact. They are part of history, much like the Greek, Roman, Pagan gods of old - but still all just stories. Chrisitanity (and any other religion) in non-faith state schools should be taught as fact as much as Harry Potter should be. You'd never tell a child 'only good girls and boys get their Hogwarts letters at 11', as much as you should say 'Santa only comes if you behave' or 'you only get into Heaven if you believe in God'. That's the issue here, not denying children stories from the ages.

Perhaps step back and consider the vast amount of biblical references in literature and film. It can be a disadvantage in later years to not have some knowledge of the bible/main stories, as some students on my English Lit course found.

of course they should be taught it. I don't think secularists are against that.

Let's ban Santa, the Tooth Fairy and Elves while we're at it, forbid children should enjoy imagining/magical things that don't have a scientific explanation*

still not against that.

let's just be clear what we are against. Prayer, and making it a school activity. that's NOT educating kids about anything, it's making kids participate in religious worship.

the trouble comes when these stories are presented as fact

that too.

We were taught about greek myths in school, and spent quite a long time on it.

But that wasn't taught in science class and was clear that this isn't the current state of the art scientific research.

I think if you don't believe in it all then just tell your dc that it all a load of bunk, and that some people believe but that you don't. They will be okay with that. I am a churchy person and I am glad that ds gets this stuff at school, but I always check what he's been told and explain what I think the sensible version is e.g. the creation story is just a story, it didn't actually happen like that. But "love your neighbour as you love yourself" is a good and sensible rule and worth listening to.

I think if you don't believe in it all then just tell your dc that it all a load of bunk, and that some people believe but that you don't. They will be okay with that. I am a churchy person and I am glad that ds gets this stuff at school.

Very important line here - athiests should just have to explain to their kids at home that religion is only made up stories, but 'churchy' types get their way regardless, as it will always be a part of school. Why shouldn't reglious types have to explain their beliefs at home and school be kept only for only teaching factual/educational matters? You can teach kindness and 'loving thy neighbour' to a child, without needing to mention a big beardy man in the sky. Kids aren't that dim or emotionally unaware.

Children learn all sorts of stuff at school, they know how to filter information. We are non-religious at home and mine have come home spouting all sorts from assembly. At primary I think that they used to have talks from a group called "Pathway". Once my DD came home and told me that rich people couldn't go to heaven!

Now they say, no religion when asked in RS lessons. They have obviously been more influenced by me and DH than school. They know that they can choose for themselves when they are older, if they are interested.

Like it or not, we live in Europe. A very significant part of our civilization was built on Christianity. We can't discard many centuries of history and culture just because being 'a churchy type' is recently unfasionable.

We got taught both creationism and evolution at our school. (Not British here). Point is, believe whatever you wish, but an educated person should know both

They're not equivalent though. One is a Theory, one isn't. A theory is not defined in science as 'an idea I've had' it's a theoretical framework with rules and a vast amount of evidence to back it up. The word theory has a very specific meaning.

Creationism isn't a theory. It's just a daft, groundless idea. No framework, no testable parameters, no evidence.

The idea that the two are taught in schools as some sort of sides of a coin is abhorrent. It's like saying, "hi physics students, today we will be learning about the theory of gravity, but for balance I need to also tell you that I personally believe elves hold as all down with tractor beams."

Kids do need to understand the place of religion in the world, and it's cultural relevance to history/modem society/politics.

But to plant religious beliefs in an innocent little mind is utterly vile.

But "love your neighbour as you love yourself" is a good and sensible rule and worth listening to

That can be taught quite happily without religion being involved.

"Very important line here - athiests should just have to explain to their kids at home that religion is only made up stories, but 'churchy' types get their way regardless, as it will always be a part of school. Why shouldn't reglious types have to explain their beliefs at home and school be kept only for only teaching factual/educational matters? You can teach kindness and 'loving thy neighbour' to a child, without needing to mention a big beardy man in the sky. Kids aren't that dim or emotionally unaware."

yes,yes, yes - this^^

this is what I am and many object to - that the status quo be that our children who have no religion be made to learn about it as a default as soon as they step into school. WHY shouldn't it be the other way around, where kids go to school and religion is only mentioned educationally in a proper lesson about what some people believe?

Like it or not, we live in Europe. A very significant part of our civilization was built on Christianity. We can't discard many centuries of history and culture just because being 'a churchy type' is recently unfasionable.

That's ok, because no one is saying that history and culture shouldn't be taught in school. People are saying that the context should be appropriate (RE or history class vs science class), and that kids shouldn't be asked to participate in worship.

Unless the part of Europe you want to impress on kids is the inquisition.

This bugs the life out of me. I shouldn't have to withdraw my children from things for them to go to another room, with lots of other children withdrawn, to be taught the same thing as the children in the assembly, but with a "Christians believe..." take on it. It should ALL be taught like that imo.

They manage to put on assemblies and educated them on every other faith in a 'Some people believe...' way and I don't see why the same way can't be done for Christianity.

brokenhearted well I think what people would like to have happen is for their children properly educated at school and to have the religious side of things left up to them.
I don't really see why that is too much to ask for. After all, a school and a church are 2 different things, with 2 seperate purposes.

The requirement for a collective act of worship in schools is appalling in this day and age. Yes, children can opt out, but seeing all their teachers and majority of pupils engaging with it gives a strong message to impressionable minds, that there is a god etc. Imagine if schools had always been secular, and this requirement was brought in now as a new idea? Or if it was suddenly introduced to the workplace? There'd be an outcry, and quite rightly.

Nobody should be taught creationism, and the only reason you'd teach it as literal fact to five year olds is because anyone older will see through it for the obvious story it is. Don't confuse children with lies, that's rubbish.

I'm a teacher and once observed another teacher tell her class,
'Some people believe that God made our families, the world and all the beautiful things around us.'

'Other people believe that we were all monkeys then we became people.'

I stood there open mouthed watched a bunch of infant children look puzzled and frightened by the idea that their mother gave birth to a monkey. afterwards she said she had been told that she had to teach both sides as things people might believe in.
This sort of crap happens every day in our schools. Not only bias but inaccurate nonsense. On top of that I just want to scream that one theory is scientific fact whist the other is not. It's an ancient story told at a time when the majority of people didn't understand how the world worked.

All 3 of ours were taught about God and Jesus as they were real. Only one was at a church school and believe it or not they had less worship than the community school.
None of them believe now, but they did as children, they'll make their own mind up and if they do or don't want to believe it's up to them.

Well an act of worship is obligatory in British schools, but the teaching of creationism as fact is quite the opposite.

Ouryve, I thought it was just English schools? My understanding is that Scottish schools do not have the same requirement.

I was going to say the same as BrokenHearted .

I was brought up very churchy - my grandfather held a very senior position in the Church Of England, my father went to a special church boarding school for "clerical families" and took his degree in Theology before teaching RE/RS for 40 years.

We went to church every Sunday, I was christened by my grandfather and confirmed at 10. I also went to a church school, sunday school & a brownie and guide group which was also heavily affiliated with the church.
I had to say grace before every meal & prayers every bedtime.

Couldn't be more atheist if I tried . My siblings are the same.

I don't agree with children having a religion enforced on them in any way, I think it is a private matter and the decision to join or follow a religion should only be made by an informed adult. But learning about religion at school will not make your child take holy orders.

What do you think is going to happen?

we'll have a nation of christians and atheists, both groups being apathetic to the legal requirements of schools to force children to pray to a particular god?

even worse, we have a nation of people turning a blind eye to the privilege of one religion.

"Also, children should learn about all religions through stories and looking at ceremonies/celebrations. It seems to be 'a thing' now for some parents to be happy for their children to learn about all religions except Christianity!"

Oh, not that old bollocks again!

We are not talking about being taught about Christianity. We are talking about, in some cases, children being taught Christianity as fact. And in all cases, children being told to pray to a Christian God in orders to take a full part in the life of a tax funded state primary school.

Being taught about Christianity- fine. Being taught to do Christianity- not fine. It's really not hard.

Oh, not that old bollocks again!

I think 90% of posters are confused about this.