Very noisy children upstairs (boys ages about 7-9 yr old) need advice please!

[cassidyz]

My boyfriend and I live underneath a family of four with two boys, ages 7-9. Due to the construction of the split level flat, it is noisy whenever they are in but sometimes the noise reaches unbearable levels and communication has broken down between myself and the mother. I wanted some advice from parents to understand where I stand on this issue.

The problems start in the weekday mornings when the boys wake up at 7am and play loudly (banging, running, shouting) until they run down the stairs for school at 8am. They return at around 3.30pm and recently they have been coming home alone and play very loudly into the evening. The weekends are the same, sometimes with extra children. I work late nights as a waitress so if I get to bed at 3am and am woken up at 7am, the following day is ruined for me by tiredness.

To clarify, my definition of loud noise is the kind that shakes the walls and picture frames and can be felt physically when, for example, I am sitting reading.

I used to text the mother to let her know when it was getting too much and she used to apologise and I would hear her telling them to be quiet. Recently, however, she has turned defensive and refuses to consider our polite requests and asks me to stop 'harassing' her. I feel as though my boyfriend and I are too forgiving and should not allow her children to rule our lives.

Could someone offer some advice on this? The next step for me would be to pursue it with her lettings agent (they are tenants). I have lived underneath different people for the last 5 years and never once had issues as bad as this and my friends are shocked at the noise when they visit.

I think you're right to raise it with the agents. Are they tennants? If they own there's not much you can do except go down the noise nuisance route.

Have you invited her down to hear the noise that you hear? It's easy to think that people are being picky or making a fuss when you aren't aware of just how loud things can be and are used to the direct noise, so to speak, but perhaps if she realised just how much you can hear she would be more inclined to compromise.

They are coming home alone?

And how long are they alone for?

I would contact the Noise Team at the Council in the first instance. Start keeping a diary if you haven't already

Next step is the letting agents if communications have definitely broken down. Your neighbour already knows the noise is bad and she isn't keeping a kerb on it. Kids make noise but I'd be very concious if my neighbour complained as much as you have.

Tricky one. I own a flat in an old block and to be fair, the insulation between the flat above mine and mine is not good. Sound does travel. However, there are clauses in the lease so that owners and/or tenants are not allowed to have laminate flooring, for example, which would contribute to the noise. There are also clauses about unreasonable noise and the hours noisy work can be carried out.

I think you may well struggle with environmental health and the noise team as they could say it's children playing and at reasonable (ie daytime) hours. Some sound is to be expected from neighbours unless you live in a detached property in the middle of nowhere. It's not the fault of the neighbour that you expect to be able to start your night of sleep in the early hours of the morning, and want quiet at a time of day when most people are getting up and out of the house.

I'm on the fence - if they're not doing anything to deliberately enhance what most people would call everyday noise, you're going to have to get earplugs. Or move? I suspect you've been lucky with people who went out to work during the day in the past living above you and regular family noise now comes as a shock. I'm not unsympathetic - but that's what you get when you have shared walls/floors/ceilings etc.

Complain to noise control and the lettings agent, I have lived underneath a nice single bloke living alone and him walking about was enough to ruin an evening, im presuming you own so you are stuck? I feel so bad for you

Thanks everyone! Not sure how to tag usernames, but Narp: I sometimes see the boys walk home alone and cannot hear the mother at home but I don't think they are alone for long. I think I was walking home alone at that age because my primary school was very close.

DoJo, I think that would be the next step but I am almost a bit worried about approaching the mother now after some of her defensive and almost aggressive texts (eg 'if you have a problem go to the council', 'stop harassing me' etc).

All I want is quiet mornings back and to stop this resentful relationship!

My boyfriend owns the property - if we were renting we'd be gone long ago!

I put earplugs in every morning if I need to sleep a bit later but because its such a physical banging I can feel it in the bedframe!!

tilly (are you the OP?)

Oh I don't think going home alone is a problem, but being at home alone for any length of time, especially if they are behaving in a disruptive way, which might be potentially dangerous, might be.

I agree Narp, I imagine accidents could happen no matter how the children were behaved. I would even be happy to check up on the boys occasionally had we not developed this problem!

The main thing I want to know is whether it is unreasonable for me to expect the mother to find a way to keep her children quiet (for the most part) say, before 8am on the weekdays and 9am on weekends? Things like running and playing on an electronic keyboard just make me think they aren't even trying.

(yes i am OP, im new and changed name )

Are they jumping off furniture etc or is it the general noise of them moving around? I'm guessing if they have to be getting ready for school then this is going to mean they are moving around. Children do tend to walk noisily and that is almost impossible to stop but you have the right to enjoy your own home. What time do you they go to bed at? Noise from children playing in daylight hours are not considered a nuisance by the council so I don't think you would get any results through that avenue. Could you go halfs with the landlord on the cost of sound proofing your home?

I think you should go through the letting agency.

You're describing two different issues - one is the time of the noise and the second is the volume level.

On the timing thing, I can see how it would be hard to keep DCs quiet when they are getting up for school in the morning and yes tbh as the DM of a 9yr old I'd struggle to keep him church mouse still until 9am at the weekend. It's also not their fault that you work late, as the majority of people would be getting up at 7am anyway. There was a thread just a couple of days ago about what time it was reasonable to mow your lawn and apparently the Scottish(?) law around antisocial noise is between 11-7.

However if the noise levels are making your pictures vibrate and shocking your visitors then that's too loud and needs to be investigated.

we live in a flat. we are at the top. ds is bloody noisy when he is having a melt down. does not make it pleasant for mr downstairs. the children are not supposed to run jump, stamp, etc inside.basic courtesy. not much I can do about meltdowns other than leap across the room and try and get him off the floor...

some noise is to be expected, but doing ones best to minimise it would help. (carpets, no shoes, we have extra camping mats for physio and noise reduction, trying to minimise the stresses for ds. (keeping him fed, watered and destressed) banning jumping running, stamping.. (ds's latest thing)

My problem is regarding loud noise (ie crashing, banging, playfighting, sometimes the sound of a ball bouncing) in the morning (between 6-9am).

Even if I am awake it is an unpleasant start to the day! However I am prepared to tolerate some and often move rooms if I can.

That's all preventable noise, and shouldn't be happening during those hours. My son is four and I worry about the noise he causes for our downstairs neighbours when playing on the floor with cars etc as he crashes around a bit on all fours. But he is old enough to understand the different between indoor and outdoor house and never play fights or bounces balls inside unless our neighbours are out. They should make more effort, you sound very tolerant.

I'm sorry OP, but I almost laughed out loud at your comment about keeping children quiet before 8am weekdays and 9am at the weekends. I'm actually starting to think you have unreasonable expectations. The family above you have the right to enjoy being in their home, just as you do. I actually suspect the problem isn't either their loudness or your intolerance of noise though - I bet there is no insulation between the two properties (so your ceiling and their floor) and they may well think they're being quiet but you can still hear them anyway. Unless this is addressed, you're never going to see eye to eye. It's rather extreme, but cheaper than moving - and I looked into this myself - could your boyfriend install soundproofing below the ceiling of your flat? It looks like egg boxes and would mean the ceiling was a couple of inches lower but could be an option if you can't improve the insulation between the two properties.

If it's during the day and not quiet hours, there's not much you can really do. Buy some ear plugs for now and see if that helps.

A video that feels your pain.

Tell the managing agent. Good tenants are hard to find, and families are usually desirable. However, the chances are that the managing agent (or landlord if there is no managing agent) will just want a quick resolution, so they'll ask the family to be quiet for you. Then if that doesn't work and you keep complaining, they'll probably not renew the tenancy.

Maybe take a video - with the calendar and clock on - so that both the shaking pictures and the noise can be shown. Then load it onto youtube and send the managing agent the URL along with your complaint. People tend to put their own prejudices on things until faced with evidence that shows exactly how loud it is and exactly how much things shake.

If the children are playing as violently as it sounds, then it may well be damaging the landlord's property anyway.

Make official complaints. I have children of the same age. Unless they have SEN they should be capable of walking lightly and not play fighting/bouncing balls for one hour each morning.

It was very selfish of the family to move in above you knowing they had noisy boisterous children.

In your shoes id consider changing work shifts. Getting to bed much earlier.

A friend of mine lived in a maisonette with two small children (3 and 2) and the lady underneath was making daily complaints to council/police/HA. She was keeping them as quiet as possible and often spending hours literally walking the streets to keep them out of the house as much as possible as relations had turned very sour.

An assessment was done and it turned out their was no insulation/sound proofing between the floors so her children even walking across a room sounded like a herd of elephants.

OP they may be keeping the levels to a minimum but the sound is travelling. The joys of flat living!

Namechangenell, I hope its clear that I am not expecting complete silence during those hours, just avoiding preventable noise and loud, floor-based playing!

Thanks for all the advice. I spoke to the lettings manager over the phone and she said she can only give warnings, but there must be a noise clause if they are tenants.

There are 2 issues here:

Sound proofing between the properties - there are minimum building reg standards for this and it may be that your properties do not meet this. the only way you can find this out is by Env Health or a private noise consultant coming and doing tests. these consist of sound frequencies and a tapping test to simulate footsteps. You can ask your EH dept to do these tests. get them to come out and witness the noise between the 2 properties and request this test. if they cant/wont do it within a reasonable timescale then speak to a noise consultant - should be a member of the institute of acoustics and get the airborne and impact tests done BUT and it is a BIG BUT, if they find the insulation isn't up to standard then they will require the works to be done. as owner, your BF will be liable for half the costs. don't underestimate how expensive this can be as it can mean false ceilings, insulation, rewiring light fittings etc.

Unreasonable noise - despite what others may think the noise from children can be deemed to be excessive and defined as a statutory nuisance. under these circumstances legal notices can be served on both the person causing the nuisance (in this case the parents as they are under age) and on the landlord to control the tenants. BUT you are in for months and months of record keeping, EH visits, logs, taping etc. How would your neighbour react to a legal notice to keep her children quiet? this could have daily mail sad face all over it!

Only you can decide the best way to go and one of those ways might be to move I am afraid. Personally, I would get the airborne and impact tests done and get a report. I would do it privately (probably cost around £800 ) and take it from there. at least if you do the report then if the building does fail you can work out if it is worth the cost of doing the works or just moving.

OP Mummy has given great advice which is again echoed in this article- www.problemneighbours.co.uk/noisy-flat-above-there-anything-we-can-do.html

really feel for you as have had had this issue (thought not with kids but adults!) in the past. I have a 2 year old and am always conscious of the noise he makes (we live in terraced house) its a shame this woman cant be more thoughtful towards others. But def pursue the soundproofing investigations/contact landlord/agency/council. Don't give up.

We texted her this morning to ask her to come and listen to the noise, which she ignored, only to send us a text later on saying that we had 'stressed her children out for school' and should consider moving!!!!