.. To think we should know if our Dear Leader sees fit to indulge in bestiality or necrophilia?

[EasyToEatTiger]

Or am I just old fashioned in thinking a line of one sort or another has been crossed if it is true?

The authors of the book have said that they have no evidence to back up this allegation - they did not witness the alleged incident, and are relying on a single rumour.

So whoever started the rumour might have been lying, or joking or mistaken, or the original story might have got garbled into its current salacious form - either way, it is not fact.

I realise I am spoiling people's fun, and as a labour voter at the last election, I have NO love for David Cameron - but I am not going to condemn him until there is some actual evidence.

With your dreadful knowledge of English I would shut up. All students do stupid things, most grow up quite normal, I think it's quite funny.

But if so many people do consider it to be normal student behaviour its because they have experienced it or heard of it before so it is common. Possibly not an endemic, but amongst certain groups it isn't unexpected behaviour. I actually think it could have happened, but I've seen boys and men at school, college and university do worse do it doesn't shock me. And amazingly some of those men grew up and would be ashamed that they acted like twats. Some would do it till the day they die because they think it's hilarious. Men of all social classes and backgrounds btw.

If you would be all meh reading this about your own son in the paper then yes put it down to high jinks. Personally I find it repellent.

If I read it about one of my sons, I would check the facts first, and I would ask them - if they denied it, I would believe them. I have known them long enough to know when they are lying.

Cameron might be lying - but so might whoever started/passed on the rumour.

Of course, it is utterly impossible that anyone would spread a salacious rumour about a public figure, in order to dirty their reputation.

Well without physical proof we will never know if it's true or a lie, but grossness aside all young people who may be or are being hazed should perceive this as a sign of caution with the amount of social media around now. If someone did it now, they'd be no hiding it- someone would have facebooked, instergramed or tweeted!

Yeah... I don't know many drunk college kids here that have (or even would) stuck their dicks in pig mouths. That's pretty weird no matter which way you spin it.

I think hazing can be all kinds of things and pretty grim and gross and embarrassing, weird is just the tip of the iceberg!

According to ds3, the rugby club initiation at his university involved bobbing for apples in human urine, and by the end of the evening, the participants stunk of urine, faeces and vomit. Ds3 plays hockey, thank heaven.

SDTG that is unsurprising and fucking gross, I wonder how many of those kids will end up on youtube . Was the initiation the reason he went for hockey or does prefer?

SDTG How did he know? It may have been so much boasting. But if one of those rugger-buggers becomes Prime Minister or Archbishop of Canterbury there will be someone to swear that that's what happened.

Has DS told you about the hockey players' initiation rite or are you just hoping there wasn't one?

Andrew - he was in the bar when they came in, and he could smell the stink, and the participants were very open about what had happened - he got the account from the urine-stained horses' mouths.

Starks - hockey has been his game for a number of years now - he never got into any other team sports - but he told me that, even if he had been a keen rugby player, he wouldn't have joined the university club because of the initiation.

OK SDTG you've answered my first question and I won't press the second. I just hope I live long enough to read about the PM or the Archbishop and still have enough marbles to remember having seen it here!

Sorry - I forgot to answer your other question, Andrew - I had strong suspicions that there would be an initiation for the hockey club, because ds2 plays hockey too, albeit at a different university, and his initiation involved drinking, dirty pints, more drinking, a very muddy obstacle course, and ended with him getting his head shaved. There may have been noxious substances in the mud of the obstacle course. Oh, and they had to brush their teeth and then drink grapefruit juice.

So I was not surprised that ds3 went through an initiation - drinking, and dirty pints seem to have been the major theme of the evening. And if a more senior club member meets him anywhere, and he has a drink in his hand, they can tell him to down it in one - for the whole academic year, I think.

He does still have all his hair, though. He is fine with drinking things that make him sick, but go near the 'do at your peril!

Cross posted!

Ah well, drinking with no apples, urine, or funny business with pigs . . . could be worse!

It certainly could!

I'm not accepting these things as ok, I just accept that they unfortunately common and normal in my experience. I'm not 'spinning anything' to deny its weirdness, I find it completely disgusting and abhorrent and am not excusing it. It is a bigger issue as evidenced by the people coming forward to say they are aware of similar occurrences amongst young men. Ive seen and heard of 'initiation rites'/'team banter'/'laddishness' behaviour that is far worse than this. Guess what? Some of those men WILL be your doctors, economists, accountants, lawyers and even your children's teachers one day. So true or not, how about using this story to open up a debate on the antics of young men that apparently does exist?

I don't recall anything like these initiations happening when I was at university in the early 90s, Mistress - I suspect it is a practice that has come over from the States, and the 'hazing' that happens in sororities and fraternities.

After some serious incidents over there, the colleges are cracking down on hazing, I believe - so hopefully the UK universities will start to follow suit. I assume that they have some authority over the club's carrying their name - they could suspend or even expel them for unacceptable behaviour.

I think I did a fairly good job of bringing up decent, kind young men, but I don't feel I have a lot of direct influence now - though I hope all the things we taught them as children have stuck.

SDT, I suspect you're right re. It possibly being an American hazing thing. But blokes genuinely seem to find it hilarious! I went to university a few years ago and amongst the more bolshy and social sort of 'lad' it was so common you would safely put money on them having done a number of different disgusting 'games' which all had names they were so well known. Variations on one called Soggy Biscuit was a firm favourite....

I was at uni in the late 80s and our rugby teams were notorious fir their initiation antics. The tales from my friends at medical schools were eye-watering and are part of the reason why I will not be leaving my body to medical science….

So why is it men that do this? Perhaps women do too but I've never encountered it.

A hypothetical question, in all honesty what would you do if you'd heard your son put his penis in a dead pigs head? Would you disown him? Unlikely. Probably give him a good ear bashing and tell him to grow the fuck up. If he did grow up into a nice, well-balanced young man and was truly remorseful for his actions, would you honestly tell him he couldn't be a politician or lawyer or whatever because of that one time he was a twat at university? Would you?

Lyndon Johnson, the brutal Texan who succeeded John F Kennedy as US president is said to have ordered his staff to spread a clearly false rumour that a rival had sex with a pig, because “I want to make the son-of-a-bitch deny it” and thus bring public attention to the rumour. There is no suggestion that Lord Ashcroft has done something similar in Mr Cameron’s case. But the effect may be the same.

I don't see any reason to like or trust Ashcroft, either. He's hardly slamming Cameron because he's deeply concerned about what's happening to the vulnerable in our society, is he? Or because he's opposed to the incremental privatisation of the NHS? He's just pissed off that he wasn't given a significant role in government.

Christ, some of you lot'd shit a brick if you saw some of the stuff that went on in your average Sergeants or Officers Mess in the Army of the 80's & 90's - and that was nothing compared to what went on in the Pigs Bars (Other Ranks)......

I've seen & partaken in some foul things in my time, best I don't run for PM eh!

This is all so libellous. But I also think Lord Ashcroft may come to a sticky end in retaliation for the claims he's made.