I'm sooooo cross! Kids who are rude and disobedient

[Chairmanofthebored]

Not sure why I'm posting this here but I didn't get much of a response on parenting thread. I am trying so, so hard to remain calm around my two DC. I am just truly exasperated at the sheer bloody cheek of them sometimes. Dd who is 7 has just been appallingly rude when I asked her to come in from playing. I'd given her a 5 min countdown and was polite and calm but still receive a sassy response and had to stand on doorstep for a few minutes while she argued with me in front of neighbours child. What should I have done? Dragged her in by her hair or stood gently coaxing her in? I am sometimes at a complete loss to know what to do.
Ds who is 4 has shouted, kicked and hit me today when he hasn't got his own way. Last week I went to GP who gave me Valium as I've been suffering with a horrible tight feeling in my chest most days. I am finding it hard to not take it all personally.
I'm reading how to get kids to talk book and have been really trying hard to try and be calm and understanding, I'm really trying. Please be gentle, has anyone got any tips?

Yes but Disappointed none of those norms are even close to what we are talking about.

Pretty much all societies function on the basis of hierarchical structures, agree sets of rules which most people follow in order to make everyone's life easier.

Family structures follow those societal norms in microcosm i.e. someone is in charge ( the adults) and has authority over the family (because the children are too young to take responsibility for themselves/understand consequences etc)

My children are encouraged to question (and are always given truthful answers in response) and we are happy for them to challenge the basis for rules, individual instructions etc.

However in the end of the day, my DH and I are in charge, not the children, and there are excellent reasons for that.

I have never seen a family where the child is in charge which is happy and calm. Quite the opposite.

Kids in charge is a bloody disaster somebody has to be at the top you can discuss all you like but their welfare is in the hands on a parent if not they rule the household bossyi ng parents about and everything has to run by a small persons approval nah wasnt for me.

Where did anyone say the kids should be in charge?! I questioned the post about them soon what they are told when they are told with no (obvious) exceptions.

*doing not soon

No one person should trump another especially if they are being rude and disrespectful.

I think you dealt with it fine, they are tired from back to school and new routines and they do play up. I should sit them down individually with conversations along the lines of their responsibility to do as you ask, why you ask them to do things e.g. come in from playing as its time to get ready for tea/bed so they get properly fed and have enough sleep to do well at school etc. I have even gone as far as to ask my daughter what she thinks I should do about her behaviour - ie what her consequences are, and they are always worse than what I think of for her so we compromise and I get a promise to try harder next time and we finish with a hug. Win win she doesn't feel hard done by, I get a child willing to help me help her etc

needs that's why I walk away. Because standing there gives the child the chance to say "i don't care if I go out" etc
And if they don't come in they don't go out next day. It may be the next day they suffer but they learn parents mean what they say.
Also when my mum use to do this to me and walk away I then stood there like a lemon not really knowing what to do next so would do as she asked because at 7yo I did still need direction like most 7yo - even if they tight against it!

Ah kids, eh?

This works - pocket money. It works on a system. They can earn it (ie getting to school on time, chores etc) but also can lose it.

So when they kick off:
'that was rude - next time its fine... Ok that's a fine of (small)pence for being rude... Again? Ok, so that's now xxpence in fines.

Continue until child gets the message. Make a point of writing it down - earning it and losing it and add up on pocket money day. Best to try to fudge it a bit so that they don't end up owing you a fortune!

Keep firm, controlled and calm. Explain the rules clearly and make sure they understand. The first few times will be tough, but keep calm and in control.

Yes its a pita having to write it down, give warnings etc but its more effective that getting cross, giving out punishments and feeling guilty for yelling at them.

Pick one method and stick to it rigidly.

It's no use flitting from calm and understanding/talking it through etc and then deciding it doesn't work and going for harsh. Kids need to know you mean business and also where they stand.

Personally, that behaviour from your dd would have been met with a very stern 'IN!', followed by being grounded the next day from me. Then the day after the grounding she'd be allowed out and she'd be expected not to answer back and come in when asked. If the same behaviour occurs, repeat the firm 'IN!' and grounding. Don't enter into a discussion about it. She will get the message if you are consistent.

Also, I do like the pocket money idea, but would reverse it and have money earned for good behaviour rather than taking off for bad.

At the end of the day, your children are your responsibility.
You are responsible for bringing up a healthy, well balanced individual who will not be a burden to (him)self or to society.

A big part of that includes rules on how you eat, sleep, learn and react to those around you. Teaching a strong work ethic (yes, I can and will do my best every time) is essential. Objections can be raised, of course, and what you expect of your children should be strongly scrutinised and open to change.

We all know kids flourish when they know what the rules are. They have the security that their parents want the best for them and have learnt to trust their carers' judgement through loving explanations and the occasional thought-provoking reprimand.

On a lighter note, I often recall the scene in The Northern Lights where the hateful saccharine torturess Mrs Coulter tells Lyra: "Do not defy me. If you do, we will have a confrontation, which I shall win." (Apologies if I've misquoted.) Odious I know, and please don't think I agree with this style of parenting, but that woman knows the parent of a young child ALWAYS has the upper hand.
Lots of parents would do well to remember it.

A big part of that includes rules on how you eat, sleep, learn

How can you have rules around things that are genetically/biologically set rather than chosen?

You don't eat too much, you don't sleep too little and you learn as much as you can according to your "genetic preconditioning" (ouch, that's a dangerous topic).

It was more they type of learner I meant. A classful of kinesthetic learners aren't going to do well if told to sit still for 6 hours a day.

As for sleeping too little, well, nobody has an off switch. It can take some people a long time to get to sleep and others wake in the middle of the night unable to get back to sleep. If DD (4) wakes at 7am instead of her 8am waking she'll be down on sleep, but I can't force her to go back to sleep if her brain is awake and ready for the day. She'll usually have a little nap or catch up that night.

Similarly she eats what she needs but barely eats anything during the day, preferring to stoke her boiler in the evening. She's been that way since forever. I offer the food but she eats when she's hungry (which doesn't coincide with the school timetable at all).

It's reassuring that I did do a lot of the things other posters have suggested. I have stopped counting down as it feels like I spend all day counting to 5 and I'm sick of it tbh and it doesn't help them to correct their behaviour. I think I just need to understand that it takes time and they will keep on repeating past bad behaviours but in the long run they will be learning. I don't think it's realistic for kids to be expected to always do as they are told the first time. Unless they are shit scared of you or little angels its just not going to happen with the majority of kids.
And incidentally my daughter managed to get nearly all her spelling right today! How annoying!!!!

Crikey sunshine - you sound like a lovely person total bloody madwoman.

I'm quite nice and normal really Naice.

Which bit seems particularly crazy to you?

Chairman sounds like you're on the right track. Definitely try not to count down; that's a start. It sounds like you've been very tightly wound up and they know it. Tell them what you expect them to do and when, and if necessary, what will happen if they don't do it. Don't give options - so, with spelling, it's either do your spelling now, or not. Definitely not: do it, or just two words, or later, or not at all. If she chooses 'not', then she has to explain to her teacher why.

Practice patience and kindness, particularly to yourself, and model the behaviours you'd like to see in them. You'll get there!

I don't think it's good for kids to jump when you snap your fingers. Family life loses something when that sort of situation happens, and children lose something too.

All the same, when there are certain rules that are known in advance, or a certain schedule, or the DCs know that when you call them in they are to come in, then don't put up with any arguing at all. Don't engage with any point they make. When they pause for breath say 'Do not argue with me. We have already discussed this'. Then physically move them in or wherever they need to go. If there is an argument indoors about something else, then walk away.

If something has already been discussed and agreed upon then it's a non-negotiable with me I do not engage with efforts to change the plan and I do not tolerate power games. I am older than my DCs and better at arguing but they will not get any kind of a response from me. They are wasting everyone's time by trying. Maybe there's a bit of a Mrs Coulter in me.--

OP, get a copy of '1-2-3 Magic'.

Boundaries and consequences....
This has always worked.
The know what is allowed and what is not acceptable.

From they were old enough they did their time on the naughty step which had to be followed with an apology and hugs.
Now older, 5 & 7, the naughty step is rarely needed.
If one gets sassy they lose ipad for the day, or for 24 hours, as appropriate, and they hate this. ----.this works well.
They each have a particular soft bedtime toy....if necessary they can lose this for the night, or more.

Homework is done after school immediately following a snack.
This is a rule, no negotiation.

If asked to do something and they try to argue, the countdown starts from 5. They will try to hold out to about 2and then scamper to do it. Because they don't want the consequences.

On occasion if one pushes it too far it's bed, no snacks, no toys or electronics. Tears won't achieve anything, once calmed they will be allowed to read a book. But they are in bed (actually in bed) for the night/until next morning.

They are well rounded kids who sometimes try it on, but they try it on less and less. They know we mean what we say.

Presumably you're preparing them for some sort of military career.............

With respect disappointed, you are saying here that you have a 4 yo.

As you will appreciate a 4 yo is very different to a 7 yo.

Having 2 children is also a completely different kettle of fish to having 1.

I heard once that the difference between having 1 child and 2 is huge. Having 1 child is like keeping a pet, having 2 is like keeping a zoo.

I only have 1 mostly well behaved ds. He's 9. He has his vile moments and thinks it's acceptable to back chat and defy me. I have to point out that there is no democracy in my home, that it is a (mostly) benign dictatorship, and while his views will be considered, my word is the last on any subject.

There has to be routine, boundaries and consequences. You can reason with a 4yo, mostly, but as a natural process of development, they HAVE to push boundaries. Our job is to show them where the limits are.

Our limits can be more loose than those of our parents, but there have to be limits. Our children need them to be able to grow and challenge themselves.

ladyB I'm shocked that you remove soft toys tho! The merest thought has me AND my son in some despair!