to think Christenings aren't about religion and a mostly an excuse for a piss up

[mileend2bermondsey]

Lots of people I know are getting their DC Christened and honestly I don't think one of them truly believes in God/Christianity or even attend schurch. They go on about what church they want to use and who will be the Godparents, AIBU to think they are being hypocrites and just using it as an excuse for a party? 90% of them aren't married so clearly are not interested in that aspect of Christianity. The children won't be raised as active Christians/attend church/study the Bible. So why is this aspect of te religion so important and the rest is give or take?

If you want a party to celebrate a childs birth or whatever that is perfectly understandable. I went to a lovely non-religious naming ceremony that had non-religious versions of Godparents etc. Why pretend to be active in a religion you don't practice? I don't get it?

See we want to have our children baptised. And we also want a big party to celebrate.

I'm not a fan of people being welcomed in to the church without any understanding, so we were intending to wait until around first communion age. If they then wanted to, we would proceed.

We would also have had a big party because well any excuse our family and friends are scattered globally, and if they made the effort to come and stay the night, we would do something that evening. They would all have to stay the night anyway. Plus for many of them they will be welcoming the children into the family for the first time.

So I don't think it's an either / or situation. I think both is ok. Just like with a marriage and then a reception comprising a wedding, I think a baptism and a party can comprise a christening.

We aren't catholic so school isn't part of the reasoning for us.

I'm an ex-catholic atheist from a religious family (including two vicars) and I find the idea of a christening as just a social occasion really odd and slightly abhorrent. Especially if the parents have chosen not to get married in church because they aren't religious and yet opt to have a christening because while the marriage ceremony is mostly about making vows to each other, christenings/ baptisms are about making some pretty strong vows to god. It's a much more religious ceremony, not surprising as it's about joining the faith.

Standard CoE wedding vows:
N, will you take N to be your wife/husband?
Will you love him/her, comfort him/her, honour and protect him/her, and, forsaking all others, be faithful to her/him as long as you both shall live?

Standard CoE christening vows:
Do you reject the devil and all rebellion against God?
I reject them.

Do you renounce the deceit and corruption of evil?
I renounce them.

Do you repent of the sins that separate us from God and neighbour?
I repent of them.

Do you turn to Christ as Saviour?
I turn to Christ.

Do you submit to Christ as Lord?
I submit to Christ.

Do you come to Christ, the way, the truth and the life?
I come to Christ.

Effectively the parents/godparents are lying to all the above aren't they? Well except no 2 I guess (although personally I'm a bit uncomfortable with the concept of 'evil')

Christening is the big clue. Congregations and church attenders know it as baptism.

Dh and I had a catholic wedding last year and a catholic christening for the baby at 9 weeks old this year on our anniversary. Both because dh is a practicing catholic (more so than i to be honest) and it meant a lot to us for ds to be accepted into the religion.

Although many of the guests were non believers and the party afterwards was mainly a piss up for them!

YANBU. Sometimes it's down to family pressure. MIL cried over us not marrying in church and she's beside herself that we aren't having our baby baptised. She's never set foot in a church in the 5 years I've known her.

I work in a church office and we get the "we want our child baptised on [this date], can you do it?" calls all the time.
Our ministers won't do a baptism for a child if the parents are not regular members of the church (obviously unless there are unusual circumstances) unless they agree to do a 5 week course on Christianity to make sure they understand the promises they are making, as Nooka wrote above.
Its funny how many decide to elsewhere rather than do the course....!

My FIL wanted me to demand a certain date for DC's Baptism as it was convenient for them. Both are non believers and he refused to get DH christened even though MIL wanted to. I went to the course alone as DH is not religious and chose the Godparents because they are believers and churchgoers. Certain friends who are non believers were upset not to be asked. After the Baptism PILS were 'surprised at how nice it was'. Some people have NO IDEA about the significance of it. I am so happy that my DC's soul has been saved, I'm not really bothered about anything else!

My ex-sil had a massive christening planned for her ds, which she cancelled when she realised the relevant church expected her to attend classes first, she openly admitted it was a gift grabbing exercise. She also had a baby list once he was born (listed everything she expected gifted to the new addition) and she planned her own baby shower complete with gift list. Not everyone is in it for the pictures etc some are after gifts. I don't think you are entitled to have your christening if you don't actually attend the church. Compulsory classes would probably be a good idea as well.

Mrsfrumble if the vicar is Anglican he's acting against the teachings of the CofE. However I'm aware people call the ministers of non-Anglican churches "vicar" quite often.

Yes, the vicar was Anglican. He didn't outright refuse to do infant baptisms, but I think he must have strongly counseled against them as we never saw one throughout 7 years of very regular attendance, but saw many, many thanksgivings for babies and young children and quite a few baptisms of adults and teenagers.

OP your main gripe seems to be that this practice is disrespectful to those who are more wholehearted in their faith but speaking as a Christian myself I really don't have a problem with either christenings or weddings in church for people who aren't religious.

The Church of England's founding principles back when Elizabeth I was in charge state the it isn't the role of the church or priest to dictate what people must believe. There are even perfectly nice priests within the C of E whose beliefs are that most of the bible was pretty much made up but they can still reconcile that to living in a faithful way so who are we to judge?

The Church is there to serve the people if that parish as much or as little as they feel willing to be served. And if in later life someone finds a stronger yearning for God I would far rather that their previous experience of church was somewhere that was welcoming when they asked to mark life's milestones there, than somewhere that sent them away for being insufficiently religious to be allowed these sacraments.

Good post Fish

I used to pretend I felt like you OP because my XH was very into 'it's all hypocrisy' but I have just come to feel that if a church is meaningful in ANY way to someone and they want to hold a rite of passage there, then that's great.

I agree that when I went to church, the families having a baptism would frequently look pretty shell shocked at the length of the service and the wording of the vows which did make me a bit but tbh if I were a minister I would attempt not to punish people I didn't think were religious enough by having a bit of a shorter service....

Yanbu! They are pointless, in many cases. Not all though! Fwiw though (since someone mentioned it) I baptised one child and not the second.

Why? Because with my first, in my early twenties I was still a practising Catholic, I wasnt entirely convinced a child should be introduced into a religion. But I was quite young and my strict Catholic mum convinced me I should. There was no piss up afterwards, no party, just a few sandwiches at our house with just our parents and the God parents.

I didn't baptised my second because by the time I had him I actually found I disagreed with baptising a child into a religion at a young age. I believe it's for them to choose. I bitterly regret baptising my first and wished I hadn't.

Neither child has ever gone to Catholic school, so while it may 'boil piss' in some people, I really don't see why anyone else would care that my opinions in religion have changed.

For me this is not something to get worked about, sorry.

The churches seem to welcome all babies that parents want to baptism ime, no doubt because they see it as a positive thing. I expect they hope the family will become more interested in religion if they include them. That seems like the right approach to me.

I think this thread is quite judgemental in a way that surprises me, as mnetters are usually quick to say "this is none of your business" or "it doesn't affect you"/ "judgy pants!".

(I feel i have to justify this post by saying I am genuinely religious , albeit I don't agree with the church I belong to about everything.)

Hmmm. Don't know what to think about this one. When mine were born I was a regular church goer. Both were baptised at less than 5 months old wearing the family christening gown. We invited grandparents, uncles and aunts and had a small tea party at home afterwards.

I was astonished when I girl I worked with organised her baby's baptism and was annoyed that the vicar wanted to visit them at home, and then had the audacity to expect they might attend church once or twice. There was a huge party in a pub afterwards for about 100 people.

It's a cultural thing. Why should you have to be excluded from that if you don't believe in god?

PS we invited guests for lunch at ours beforehand with dc2 and it worked well. Wasn't a piss up, obviously, as it was before but we did want to offer some hospitality to those making a long journey. Also baptism was at 4.30pm.

No one has ever had the right to be baptised by CofE in church. Unlike the (previous) right for everyone to be married their parish church.

The CofE encourages vicars to dip all and sundry, but does not require them so to do, and it's fine to require a pre-baptismal course. It does come down to the judgement of the incumbent.

AFAIK, other Christian denominations are much stricter.

Agree with Nooka - my children are not christned because I don't believe in any of the statements being made.
I did, however, get married in a church as the vows were made to my husband - although I am an atheist. I did go the all the pre marriage meetings with the vicar, though.

Why is it ok to stand up in a church and swear that you believe in a deity and promise to help raise a child in a that faith when it's all a total fabrication? What's 'cultural' about that?

Is it ok to stand up in a mosque then, or any other religious holy place and swear we believe in their god and that we'll be partly responsible for that child staying faithful to Islam, for eg, when it's all a lie?

It's madness.

My ILs like a big flashy christening with all the trappings. No religion what-so-ever. They had all their children christened aged around 8 to 10 so that FIL could get into a certain organisation

DH remembers being made to go to Sunday school 3 times, and for a few months back then they all ate fish on a Friday. It all fizzled out once the purpose had been achieved.

DH and i were asked to be GPs last year. I was uncomfortable about it, DH was too but felt he couldn't turn his sister down. Nearer the time it transpired that i couldn't be a GP anyway as i'm not christened, so escaped the dillema of what to do. Happy days.

Yanbu. I am Christian and cannot stand the very serious words set out above being read by a bunch of non-believers. It is an insult to the child too.

I get that it is 'tradition' for some people, but those people are clearly lacking some discerning independence of mind and integrity.

"It's a cultural thing. Why should you have to be excluded from that if you don't believe in god?"

It's a religious thing. The parents and godparents make promises to God. Why would anyone make promises to a being they don't believe in?

I don't think you are entitled to have your christening if you don't actually attend the church.

I don't attend church but I want to get my baby baptised after he is born. I don't attend church because I have a child with a very severe disability who would not be able to cope in a church environment. The fact that I don't attend church doesn't mean that my Christian beliefs and values are any less.
I will have to arrange respite care for my disabled child in order to take my baby to be baptised. I can't arrange respite care regularly around church attendance times and if his respite does happen to fall on a Sunday we usually have a million things to do that we can't usually do when our child is at home.
Should I be denied a baptism because I don't attend church regularly due to my circumstances?
I am not interested in presents or having a huge party after the baptism, just a few refereshments and a few close family members back at the house after the service (because I think it is polite to feed people when they have travelled to celebrate an occasion with us).