...to be annoyed by suggestion that children joining reception are getting weaker and weaker at doing what should be expected of them ....

[MoreVegLessCake]

.....because basically parents are rubbish????

I am a trustee of a grant-making charity and today we had a presentation from an organisation that runs nurture groups in local primary schools. We have already funded them, and they were reporting back on their work, though suspect they would like to get more funding for the future.

I am 100% supportive of work in schools to support the (hopefully fairly small percentage of) children who struggle for whatever reason - family difficulties etc. But the language used by the presenter and the way the whole issue was discussed really irritated me.

As parent of children still in/just out of KS1 I found myself feeling very cross at the message that the current generation of parents are more crap than those of even the recent past. Quoting from memory, we were told something like "children when I was teaching 10 years ago did not have nearly so many problems" e.gs cited were not being able to use a knife and fork, do up buttons, hold a pencil, concentrate for long enough, share toys, communicate in sentences.

We were told that nationally 40% of 5 year olds fail to meet the expectations of the EY Foundation framework, and in our town last year 47% did not. I get it that some families really struggle, as do some DCs, some parents probably are a bit crap, and extra help for all these kids is brilliant but if nearly 50% of kids don't meet the expectations at 5 years old, surely the expectations are too high??!!! It makes me feel really sad and cross that so many kids should be labelled as failing to achieve at such a young age.

Didn't help that my fellow trustees are either parents of adults or don't have children so they seemed to lap up the "feckless parents" talk .

So am I getting unreasonably upset or not?? Views from teachers in primary schools particularly welcome - I do really want to know.

Thanks in advance.

I don't think it should be costly and a government responsibility.
Soon we will have no need for parents, every part of their education and social development seems to be palmed off onto somebody else these days.
I'm also surprised it's taken so long for people to wake up to the problem.
An 18 year old level 3 which is basically an A level can't have the necessary qualifications and experience to know how to prepare a child for school, nor in their workplace are the resources either time or manpower to do this.

FFS, this is not something the Government should be doing, this is basic parenting! WIth the Internet it's easier than ever for parents to get advice. It also begs the question as to why we appear to have lost basic parenting skills.

I remember reading breastfeeding research which said that that mums who learned from their mums, had the lowest rate of problems. Maybe parenting is improved with advice from elderly relatives? Maybe it is natural for us to mollycoddle our young children, and older relatives act as a good brake on this?

'FFS, this is not something the Government should be doing, this is basic parenting!'

I get what you're saying, but its only basic if you know how to do it. Some people just don't, for whatever reason. Everything you know about parenting, you had to learn at some point along the way. A lot of parents now don't seem to feel that they should be expected to learn anything about their child's development - there's always someone else to sort it out for them. Free, high quality, readily available courses and advice sessions at Children's Centres which parents are expected to attend would help to change this culture and would be a huge investment in a better and more equal society for the future.

I completely accept the anecdotal evidence of the teachers and nursery staff on this thread.

ime there can also sometimes be a gap between the reality and what is reported. For example, when DS started nursery (at 3.5) he was toilet trained; could use cutlery; knew his numbers and letters, could write certain words and had a very good vocabulary. When nursery prepared his report they said he didn't mean any of those targets (except for the toilet training and the good vocabulary). They showed me a sheet with a scribble and said that was what he had produced when they asked him to write his name. I'm not disputing that at that day and time, he produced a scribble but it definitely wasn't representative of his ability.

Speaking to other parents, it became clear that quite a high percentage of us were being told our DCs couldn't perform tasks that they definitely were performing at home. And yy nursery is a different environment but there was obviously a gap somewhere between what the nursery was reporting and the actual ability/attainment level of the DCs.

Anyone reading the nursery's reports on the DCs would have thought they were particularly weak at meeting any of the milestones they should have been. However, it simply wasn't the case.

Maybe our very naice nursery was particularly bad at reporting or maybe the administration of the current system is creating such pressure that the reports are not as accurate as they could be.

Grandmothering is very important in all primate communities.

I think the WOHP / SAHP angle on this is specious, when set up in such a polarised way. However, if you do WOH, it is for many parents really hard to be around their pre-school children for any part of that day at all. Cost of accommodation has a pincer-effect in terms of: forcing people to live in places with long commuting times for work; and forcing people to work long hours. You don't have to think that all mothers of children up to 5 should be confined to the house, to think it is rather a shame that people in full time work are habitually out of the house for 13 hours and miss their small children entirely for the day.

(declaring an interest: I have WOH'd other than maternity leaves, full time, for most of my children's lives; but I do work from home a lot and that makes a huge difference and frankly, without that, I don't see how I could bear to do it)

There are more likely to have working mothers, but they are also much more likely to have parents who have no outside interests/time away from the dcs. It is much more intense parenting nowadays.

When my DD started (bilingual) school she was 2.10. She could do all sorts of things but school entirely failed to pick up on them - even on the fact that she was just as fluent in French as in English. The teacher just assumed that because I was English and spoke English to DD (even though I spoke completely fluent French to the teacher) that she couldn't speak French. The teacher failed to cotton on for 5 months, until it came out one day in a conversation I had with her.

So, yes, if teachers can miss such fundamental facts as this, I suspect that they are missing all sorts of other things.

But why would nurseries have got worse at assessing children against targets? Nurseries and others have been recording attainment against these targets for a while.

Bobo*

This is the problem though, its not usual for a nursery to have a teacher, and especially for children ho are 2.5.
They are usually nursery nurses not qualified to teach. Ther seems to be such varied provision.

I wonder if the average age of potty training these days - older children - is due to the ultra dry disposable nappies used today. A child has little sensation of passing urine.
Back in the sixties we might have all had nappy rash, but we were out of nappies by two!

YY re: disposable nappies. DD was mostly in cloth and has been dry for months at 2yrs 5m; many of her contemporaries at nursery are nowhere near dry.

I think screens are one reason for declining skills - especiallythe ability to listen for even a short period of time. Doesn't help when attitudes like 'i pods are good for writing, they can use the pointer to write letters' are said by the New generation of teachers ffs (in my uni class). What the bloody hell's wrong with paper and pen? It's a lot more social than screens for a start!

It would be a combination of factors.
Language. less bf, dummies. Parents putting dc to bed early so no conversations between the 2 parents. Nursery where they cant be speaking to all say 3 at the same time. So kids if anything speaking to each other , incorrectly. I dont think its tablets, except some kids that zone out.
Nappies yes too comfortable. I tried from 18m and no success at 3.3 i think i have confused her. But she is generally stubborn. I put her in pants asked several times and pit on potty several times, she weed on carpet on purpose, i persisted and put her on toilet she didnt go but washing hands weed on bathroom floor, a few minutes later on our bedroom carpet. (She can happily wee on toilet at other times)
I think lack of public toilets can be offputting as you have to take potty with you and driving long distances.
If i had a list of things required by nursery and another before school im sure completing most would be fine (except the PT possibly) as it gives you/them something to work towards - like a milestone list.
Im sure i couldnt tie laces very young.
Peope seem to be having dc very close together now so i would think its hard to give 1-2-1 attention (whilst also working)
I cant see most nurseries teaching a lot as once they deal with food, nappy changes, parents handover.
Im sure i had a lot of reading done to me at nursery as a child- remember the penelope strawberry book.
They seem to read the kids all a story together which doesnt test understanding (just ability to sit still).
I agree with pp about recording of ability on entering school/nursery . I completed a tick chart of how she was doing, but if it was based on what they can see it may have been very different. Certainly they wont see her singing or sitting for a story.
(Or even feeding herself! Apparently despite always doing so at home from about 18m

I met my year 1 phonics group today. They have no additional needs. Half of them are unable to sit for more than 5 minutes. Their listening skills are woeful. Both of these things are key to them learning.

Bobochic
That doesn't sound like a brilliant school, TBH. Have you raised it with them? What has her teacher said?

She's 10 and has made it through 8 years of primary at that school and is doing extremely well (perfectly bilingual, good at everything). Very happy with the school!

I think it's a combination of things. More premature children surviving (DS was a late preemie but he's still, at three, significantly later at some things than his big sisters). More kids with SN at normal schools. And finally the inevitable 'things were better in my day' attitude which was first recorded in Ancient Greece. Some examples of things my kids have done at a younger age than DH or myself did as children: write, read, swim, cycle, tie shoelaces. My experience has been that my (admittedly excellent) nursery and school do push skill aquisition and expect more from the kids than I would have done myself (I certainly didn't expect to get a handwritten card for Mothering Sunday from my then 3.25 year old) and far more than my (teacher) mother expected from me.

There has been much praise of grandparents here but they can be sources of very outdated attitudes and I believe children who are looked after by grandparents are suppose to do less well than those who have been in more formal settings (there may be confounding factors here of course).

place very much yes- almost without exception, all my friends with children at nursery/reception found the same.

The ballet schools are full of children who are dry at 2.5 most specify dc can't start until they are dry.
It would be interesting to know if others know of any other type of groups.
Maybe it was the norm at some time, or did parents/ childcarers encourage them more.

Truth be known there are a not insignificant number of parents out there who haven't got a clue how to look after themselves properly, never mind their children and we're all too PC to say it.

The sooner we admit that there is an ever increasing section of society that needs help to progress into adulthood with any chance of providing a 'reasonable' life for themselves or their future offspring the sooner we will start to see a change in societal standards.

Basic skills need to be taught across the board to everyone, male or female, rich or poor before they leave school. Cooking, basic childcare and safety, ironing, cleaning, basic hygiene (obviously discussed, not shown), budgeting for dummies, how to apply for a job, how to dress for an interview and so on. As standard, for everyone, regardless of class, creed or political persuasion.

You can not reasonably expect a parent to teach a child to eat healthy food nicely with implements, tie their laces or read and write when they don't do those things competently themselves.

It has also been my experience that children, in the main, are capable of far more both pysically and academically pre-school than many parents and certainly most childcare settings think they are. We are, on the whole, massively under-estimating our offspring's abilities across the board and it is coming back to bite us on the behind come time for school.

The army does a lot of your list, ankle, for new recruits - including a demonstration of how to wash properly, bits and all

Yes, I know Christine but for many young people the Army will never be an option not least as they won't get the grades required and I don't agree with National service-the Army has enough aggro with those that want to be there

So my ds is speech delayed and has poor oral communication skills. The salt provision has been woeful, he is not ready for school, but the govt has only just made their announcement re delayed reception start.
The system sucks, far too much expectation on teachers and these tiny children. Nothing to do with my parenting.

How can living in poverty explain not being able to wipe bum or do up buttons. It doesn't follow.

It depends partly on the reason you are poor. If it is because you are unable to work due to alcoholism or depression you may not be able to do the things with a child you should do.

If you are an alcoholic with money you can pay a nanny or nursery to do all the things you should be doing with a child.

If you are a refugee you may be far from any grandparent/family support and not have enough English to access the childcare books / leaflets.