...to be annoyed by suggestion that children joining reception are getting weaker and weaker at doing what should be expected of them ....

[MoreVegLessCake]

.....because basically parents are rubbish????

I am a trustee of a grant-making charity and today we had a presentation from an organisation that runs nurture groups in local primary schools. We have already funded them, and they were reporting back on their work, though suspect they would like to get more funding for the future.

I am 100% supportive of work in schools to support the (hopefully fairly small percentage of) children who struggle for whatever reason - family difficulties etc. But the language used by the presenter and the way the whole issue was discussed really irritated me.

As parent of children still in/just out of KS1 I found myself feeling very cross at the message that the current generation of parents are more crap than those of even the recent past. Quoting from memory, we were told something like "children when I was teaching 10 years ago did not have nearly so many problems" e.gs cited were not being able to use a knife and fork, do up buttons, hold a pencil, concentrate for long enough, share toys, communicate in sentences.

We were told that nationally 40% of 5 year olds fail to meet the expectations of the EY Foundation framework, and in our town last year 47% did not. I get it that some families really struggle, as do some DCs, some parents probably are a bit crap, and extra help for all these kids is brilliant but if nearly 50% of kids don't meet the expectations at 5 years old, surely the expectations are too high??!!! It makes me feel really sad and cross that so many kids should be labelled as failing to achieve at such a young age.

Didn't help that my fellow trustees are either parents of adults or don't have children so they seemed to lap up the "feckless parents" talk .

So am I getting unreasonably upset or not?? Views from teachers in primary schools particularly welcome - I do really want to know.

Thanks in advance.

I'm not at all but saying "the only thing I can think of that has reall changed in the last 10 years is the prevalence of personal screens" isn't true.

I have no firm opinion either way on SAHM vs Working as both have benefits and disadvantages. But to not mention it is myopic.

Just a personal observation, but I had my oldest and youngest 12 years apart. I toilet trained both at 2.3. With DS1, it was pretty average for the kids in his playgroup to be trained at that age. DS2 was definitely the youngest to be trained in his playgroup and some people seemed to think I was some kind of crazy woman.

Similarly things like drinking out of an open cup and using a spoon. People used to train their kids to master these skills, I think nowadays many parents just sort of wait for it to happen.

Yes Tinkly - lots of parents expect their child to 'grow out of it' rather than helping to develop new skills and become more independent.

My two pence worth of a DS just finished reception

I live in a nice middle class 'burb. Proper MN me.

My son got exceeding for his EY report in all the social side of things. Speech, language, social interaction, knowledge and the similar.
He got expected on Maths, Reading, Phonics, literacy.

He is bright but a summer born child.
Toilet trained at 2.0. Advanced speech noted throughout EY.

Why must we 'measure' all these facets? How can my child be exceeding in social academia when he has every middle class opportunity thrown at him? Parents university educated and professional jobs etc. I expect nothing less from his social advancement but why must it be measured?

My child is 'advantaged' and 'bright' but he didn't exceed in academia subjects and may continue not to do so.

So if an advantaged child isn't exceeding these goals, what chance does a disadvantaged child have?

His physical development is impaired compared to my generation. He doesn't play outside unsupervised nor climb trees. His fine motor skills suffer as a result. This impacts his learning, pencil grip, ability to sit still, not just the fact he has an iPad.

We are too quick to judge and look for precise reasons for the way in which society has changed across a generation.

For me, it is multi faceted with multiple responses. Just as I can't live to the expectation of my parents generation, my children cannot live to mine.

clam - 'but I suspect there are a few more children whose parents might have tried even harder, had they known they wouldn't be able to start school unless they were fairly reliably' trained.'

I am a parent of a DC who has only become daytime dry at the age of 6. We had no diagnosis of SN upon starting school. Me and DH were mortified that DC couldn't get to the loo on time. DC was upset about not being able to get to the loo on time. We had tried everything.
I had no idea that schools would be ok with it, and I was extremely embarrassed and apologetic to be presenting them with a child that was not toilet trained. They were brilliant and very supportive. Turns out DC has SN, but we had no idea. School had no idea either. DC couldn't use knife and fork or do buttons either and needed help with getting dressed, but was ok academically, which made it more difficult to spot.

I don't know any parent who would deliberately put off toilet training just because the school will allow kids that aren't dry. It's an embarrassing and humiliating thing to have to go through.

I have DCs with big age gaps and have noticed parenting trends change over the last decade. Ime DCs are increasingly 'babyfied'. Eg shoes are all Velcro not laces. Parents at nursery puts DCs coats on & off for them. I know a 7yo (no sen) still being fed from a spoon as his mum 'didn't want mess'. I know a teen who has never been taught to ride a bike. (It's too dangerous). It's the same with road crossing or paying for something in a shop- DCs aren't being allowed to do these things until older and older ages and are losing early independence skills.

When I had my first it was expected that you'd start toilet training when a child turned 2. Now I often see on mn & irl people suggesting not even trying until after the 3rd birthday.

Not that I think we should entirely blame the parents. We are living in an age of 'anxiety parenting' where parents are blamed for everything. More is expected of parents now.

Lots more very interesting views. Thank you all.

DowagerCountess I think you are right that I should take note. I like to think that my kids are doing well (don't we all) but I'm very aware that I'm feeling my way as I go. I think it is very interesting to have this kind of fairly realtime info about what's going on. I think it should be shared more widely - it is certainly making me think about how I am brining up my children. It would be a lot more useful if it were combined with an understanding of why what is happening is happening.... which is of course the tricky part.

TinklyLittleLaugh I think there is a lot of truth in what you say about waiting for things to happen. And I don't know if that is right or wrong. It does probably make life more difficult for schools, though it might be better for children in many ways.

I think there are other lifestyle changes - like the wide availability (and indeed encouragement of) finger food - which make a difference to the pace at which children learn certain skills.

I think it is important for us as parents, teachers, government and wider society to discuss which of these changes are good, bad or indifferent. It is a bit of a problem when one part of a system changes whilst the other doesn't. Whilst I appreciate that being defensive is not helpful, parents do sometimes feel the finger is pointed at them when maybe they are just at the sharp end of societal changes.

Whilst absolutely not wanting to turn this into a debate about full time working parents, the speaker did mention children who spent very long days in wraparound care as one group who sometimes needed extra support. But those parents are themselves just trying to do the best for their family and in turn face of a lot of pressure from society to get back to work after having children.

I think the Granny lore thing mentioned upthread is also quite relevant. My parents live a long way from us, so we didn't see them that often, but I remember them coming for DS1's first birthday.

I was cleaning out one of those horrible germ trapping feeder cups and my Mum said, "Goodness Tink he's one, just give him a normal cup". And I was very skeptical about it. But sure enough, a couple of days gently teaching him at every drink time and he had mastered it perfectly.

But yes, loads of parents use those feeder cups for ages, the assumption is that kids will do it in their own time.

This is from a few years ago discussing the decline in children's vocabulary development.

www.literacytrust.org.uk/assets/0000/1151/discussionpaper.pdf

Anecdotally, I think screen time (parent's and children) has had a really negative impact Some children and parent's spend less time interacting and some children don't know how to play as they used to being the passive recipients of entertainment. Interactive play is fundamental to developing social skills, embedding learning and vocabulary development.

I'm going to have a read of that paper - thanks Mitzi. It is very interesting that its actually from 2005 - 10 years ago - and the opening paras quote a survey suggesting a decline in the 5 years from 1996 - 2001. So this is not a new issue!!

Part of me wonders if we are all doomed to always believe that the current generation is worse at X,Y,Z vital skill....

I think there are other lifestyle changes which make a difference to the pace at which children learn certain skills.

I was just thinking this as I read the thread and felt a little ashamed that my 4.10 YO can't do up buttons.... Because he just doesn't have clothes with buttons on them! He has one proper shirt, for special ocassions, but otherwise lives in tshirts and shorts or jeans (which he pulls up and down without unbuttoning the flies because he's so skinny). We're not in the UK, so no school uniform. It's good to know that it will be expected of him when we get back though.

Other examples I just find quite shocking; never having had a story read to them? Not knowing what to do with scissors? Are these things really that common?

"I don't know any parent who would deliberately put off toilet training just because the school will allow kids that aren't dry."

I didn't say they would, if you read my post carefully. I said that the incentive has been removed for some to persevere as hard as they might have, as there's no bar to them starting school. However, there are parents who don't see it as you do, as an embarrassment. There are plenty (I'm afraid) who take the view that "Oh, school will sort them out."
I also said that historically there have always been some who struggled with getting it (for no apparent reason), and it sounds as if your ds would be one of those, but it doesn't account for the significant rise in numbers across the board.

Is age a factor too. I think until fairly recently there were two intakes so children would start a few months max before 5th birthday not all in the September as now. There is a lot of difference between 4 and 5.

I think YANBU in that a sniffy tone about parents in general isn't helpful. The vast majority of parents don't let their children down knowingly. As someone else pointed out, things like doing their buttons for them is over-zealous, not can't-be-arsed.

How can we be helped and supported to be better parents?

I have noticed with older young people that they don't seem to have the opportunities to make mistakes that I had - get on the wrong bus, lose your bus fare, get into trouble for losing or not doing your homework etc. I think it robs them of their self respect. It is a nicer feeling to feel self reliant, to get in the odd scrape and get out of it. at the same time they have huge pressures academically, socially etc. It's an odd world, a strange physically safe goldfish bowl of constant anxiety. I've no idea what the solution is because I don't feel like kicking my children out to get the bus on their own all alone with no peers and I know why people don't.

Anyway back to the little ones. I was not one to hurry my babies (breastfed till they were long past 1, for instance) but I was a little puzzled that I, of all people, was the first to potty train them, in my group of friends. I left them to it with food as much as possible from an early age - I remember dd1 managing to get mouthfuls of porridge in and celebrating "good gur!" while I sat with her eating my own breakfast (starving, pregnant again). I was always out of step because for some reason I tend to be old fashioned, not through conscious influence but I guess because I remember my own childhood and my little brother's more clearly than some.

A lot of the received wisdom on here is that you don't try to get children to do things. you don't sleep train (I did) you don't potty train till they practically ask for it and if they don't take to it immediately you leave it for a bit, you breastfeed and BLW at the same time for ever and don't worry about them actually eating meals, you carry snacks so again they never have to eat a proper meal, you distract them with snacks if they have to wait for something, and so on. All this is very kind and kindly meant but is it surprising that children don't get to things as soon as they might have?

If this is received wisdom for parenting now, schools should either delay the children starting a few years (like 6, like in Germany); or they should accept that they're a bit babyish when they start. Or if it isn't, if we should be doing things more like my mum then someone should tell us all nicely instead of moaning as if we're all playing candy crush instead of parenting

The only thing I can think of which has really changed in the last 10 years is the prevalence of personal screens....

Really I would say the biggest change has been the push for children to attend some type of educational setting from an earlier age and long day.
There is a massive push to get parents back to work when children are very young with the introduction of FEET and now the new 30 hours of pre school provision.
There is no value placed on children learning through the home.
Children are being pushed into education at such young ages and while if the setting is a good one it should enhance a childs life there are too many day nurserys and preschool who are in it to make as much money as possible with as little expenditure as possible. Often staff turn over is fast and the poor children are left with no consistency.

I agree with most on the thread. They are only reporting the facts. It is you that took it personally.

I just want to add that one big change is the real difficulty in accessing actual support if you need it. My Ds is disabled and in a wheelchair. We started toilet training him at 3 it was a disaster, but then it was bound to be because of his disability.... There is no support from GPs paediatricians therapist etc. they are too stretched a relying on nurserys etc, who funnily enough don't have experience of unusual with a reason, and parents who spend hours trying to access the support they are entitled to. It takes time away from normal parenting, and from the input the nurserys can give to "normal" children. It's the same with everything, salt, ot, physio which in turn strains the HV service, etc, etc....

I would say in the last 10 years (just my opinion) there are less and less stay it home parents, all these kids are sent to cheapest child minders possible and stuck in front of a TV

If this is received wisdom for parenting now, schools should either delay the children starting a few years (like 6, like in Germany

In the UK, I think there is too much emphasis on academic attainment at too young an age. I think we should follow something similar to the Scandanavian model which has an early years education that has a strong focus on social skills and deep learning of basic concepts.

I'm not sure about this later school thing. Really they only play about in reception anyway, and to some extent year 1. I bet they do the same stuff in Germany but call it kindergarten or something.

Make up your mind people: is it neglectful WOHM mothers parents leaving their DCs to rot in substandard childcare or is it neurotic over-managing helicopter parents doing everything for their PFB?

Is age a factor too. I think until fairly recently there were two intakes so children would start a few months max before 5th birthday not all in the September as now. There is a lot of difference between 4 and 5.

This is particularly relevant, but there are so many other variables too. Children with younger siblings tend to be more capable in practical tasks (as have had to get on with it while carers help younger ones)
Children who eat meals at the table regularly tend to be better with cutlery.
Children are better at things they have had more practice with (scissors/writing etc)

etc etc etc

I think the increase in numbers of both parents working is very relevant. Families have incredibly stressful morning routines which usually involve everything happening at top speed. Many of my friends admit to dressing their kids for school and not having the time to let them fiddle with laces and buttons.They get them breakfast, clean their teeth for them etc. If kids are to learn they need time and encouragement.

Tond, obviously it is always the mothers fault whatever they do. Everyone knows that mothers are always crap and always doing it wrong, however they choose to do it.

I have a just 4.3 year old who has just started reception so towards the younger end of the spectrum.

I feel that she is well prepared although I felt at our home visit that the teacher didn't entirely agree.

She is toilet trained, can dress herself except shirt buttons (their uniform choice), recognises her name written down, eats with cutlery and cuts food up, has nice manners, interacts very well with adults and children, knows numbers to 10, knows maybe half her letters and can write 'H', she knows the vast majority of popular fairy tales.

But she can't write her whole first name, recognise numbers to 20 and is not particularly confident with technology. That's our choice as we explained to the teacher as our children have deliberately had almost no 'screen time.'

Meh, I think she is where she should be, I'm happy.