...to be annoyed by suggestion that children joining reception are getting weaker and weaker at doing what should be expected of them ....

[MoreVegLessCake]

.....because basically parents are rubbish????

I am a trustee of a grant-making charity and today we had a presentation from an organisation that runs nurture groups in local primary schools. We have already funded them, and they were reporting back on their work, though suspect they would like to get more funding for the future.

I am 100% supportive of work in schools to support the (hopefully fairly small percentage of) children who struggle for whatever reason - family difficulties etc. But the language used by the presenter and the way the whole issue was discussed really irritated me.

As parent of children still in/just out of KS1 I found myself feeling very cross at the message that the current generation of parents are more crap than those of even the recent past. Quoting from memory, we were told something like "children when I was teaching 10 years ago did not have nearly so many problems" e.gs cited were not being able to use a knife and fork, do up buttons, hold a pencil, concentrate for long enough, share toys, communicate in sentences.

We were told that nationally 40% of 5 year olds fail to meet the expectations of the EY Foundation framework, and in our town last year 47% did not. I get it that some families really struggle, as do some DCs, some parents probably are a bit crap, and extra help for all these kids is brilliant but if nearly 50% of kids don't meet the expectations at 5 years old, surely the expectations are too high??!!! It makes me feel really sad and cross that so many kids should be labelled as failing to achieve at such a young age.

Didn't help that my fellow trustees are either parents of adults or don't have children so they seemed to lap up the "feckless parents" talk .

So am I getting unreasonably upset or not?? Views from teachers in primary schools particularly welcome - I do really want to know.

Thanks in advance.

[CocktailQueen]

It is true - in our school - that more dc are staring school in nappies. This year in ds's primary school there were 10. Out of 60. 7 years ago, there were none. That's a huge leap.

And our ht recently gave a talk in which she said dc can't listen any more -she's seen a real decline in the ability of kids to sit and listen, and do as they're told, and she puts that down to less active parenting, more screens, and more lenient parenting.

[TheNewStatesman]

"Schools and teachers have been sending parents the message for at least a couple of decades now that children will "pick up" reading, writing, etc "when they are ready". Similarly, the idea of direct instruction, rather than play-based learning in nurseries has equally been frowned on. I don't think it's surprising that these notions about developmental readiness, and the importance of children learning things "naturally" on their own child-centred initiative "when they are ready" rather than being "trained" have filtered down into the culture of parenting. Blaming parents for it is misplaced."

I know what you mean.

I am sure it depends on the individual nursery, but I can recall threads on MN where parents were baffled by some policies that their child's nursery would have.

Like OFSTED being obsessedin the most extreme caseswith everything being 100% child-led, to the point that nursery staff were being told that they were not "allowed" to a put a little positive pressure on a child to take part in an activity that they didn't want to do.

There is an obvious problem here: children tend to gravitate towards activities that they feel successful at and shy away from ones that they find hard--so a child that has poor motor skills is unlikely to "choose" to do drawing, a child with poor concentration skills and a weak vocabulary is unlikely to choose to sit and listen to a story (because they will find sitting still hard and because their poor verbal skills mean that they will find the story hard to listen to). But the poor motor skills kid is precisely the one who does need to spend time doing drawing and painting, or they won't improve! The kid who can't sit still and has poor listening comprehension is precisely the kid who needs the most story-time, to help them to catch up with their peers. Etc. etc.

My daughter is physically timid, compared with others her age, about heights and slides and ladders--I am glad that her nursery school pushes her (nicely) to expand her comfort zone, not just smiling vaguely and saying that she "isn't ready" or something.

To me it is obvious that the child-led approach of "let them choose what they want to do all day long" is likely to exacerbate gaps between the weaker and stronger children, rather than close the gaps. A certain amount of free play is fine, sure, but I don't think it should be the default way a nursery is run.

Don't even get me started on the nurseries that have tables of minging browning fruit and cups hanging around for children to pick and nibble at all day long, rather than a proper organized snack-time that involves sitting properly, pouring drinks, serving each other etc.

[colley]

In the past, GPs used to play a huge part in childcare. That meant naturally that how children were parented changed more slowly over the decades. There are good and bad things about this of course.
Now more children are in childcare looked after by mainly young women who have attended training on modern ways of bringing up children. They probably don't know that until fairly recently, most DCs could do all of these things, so think it is natural for children not to be able to do things at a relatively late age.

[colley]

There is always talk about undiagnosed SN in these types of threads. When I was young it was far harder to get a diagnosis and far less children were diagnosed with SN. So if they are not diagnosed at 5 years old now with SN, they are unlikely to have been diagnosed with SN in the past. They will have made up the % of children in the past who didn't reach these milestones.

Also I have looked after children with diagnosed SN in the past who did reach these milestones at a young age. Children with Downs Syndrome for example.

The focus on the past seemed to be much more about teaching children to be independent. Now the focus seems to be much more on nurturing a child. There has been a cultural change.

[CalmYourselfTubbs]

i agree with the teachers above.
i also know a few teachers and they all agree that:

children with complex SEN are being lobbed into mainstream schools under the guise of integration. but integration is in actual fact a government money saving exercise. some of these children are simply not able for mainstream school and are suffering and falling further behind.

more and more children are starting school without being toilet trained. parental expectation is that the teachers and teaching assistants will change nappies and clean up accidents.

more and more children starting school are unable to feed themselves and dress themselves.

generally, i think we are going backwards rather than forwards.

[BathshebaDarkstone]

Thanks, Keith, you said it for me! DS was 4 3 weeks ago. He can't perform a lot of these tasks, he's not really interested in refining his fine motor skills so the teacher, TAs and I have to bribe him to practice: 10 minutes of drawing then he can play with the cars etc.

[VeryPunny]

colley you're talking rot. The average age of staff in my children's nursery is well under 30. They all have a comprehensive understanding of child development and an enthusiasm for interacting with children. I turned down another nursery as a lot of the staff were 50+ and frankly just looked knackered. They didn't seem to have much of a clue of how to play with children.

Well said TheNewStatesman. I also find that a lot of my NCT-type friends are the ones reluctant to push anything - potty training, weaning, sleeping better, under some misguided notion that child-led means that a parent or carer must absolutely never take the initiative. I also detest child-led learning - I think most kids benefit hugely from structure to their learning.

There was a good post by someone on here pointing out that children with mild SENs had a much easier time of it in some respects previously - school had a much more settled routine, there were fewer foodstuffs they were expected to eat etc.

[Scoobydoo8]

How can living in poverty explain not being able to wipe bum or do up buttons. It doesn't follow.

[Thelushinthepub]

Hmmm without meaning to cause offence I think parenting websites contribute hugely to this issue (amongst those who use them, at least) I have only recently had children but have used various parenting websites for 10ish years. They are the source of many parenting Fads and SO many posters are advised to "relax and let them do it in their own time" about a huge variety of things. I think you become part of a community and it becomes groupthink, with dissenting voices ignored or shouted down. So many actions are considered cruel (sleep training, removing dummies, being strict with food, toilet training "early" disiplining poor behaviour, putting in own room when child doesn't want to etc etc etc
Yet the advice/ info I've had from HV/ chdrens centres has always been less indulgent and they've told me about things they're seeing in older children which mirror some of the examples here.

[Lurkedforever1]

I don't buy into time pressures being a reasonable explanation for not teaching kids to do stuff themselves. It's just a combination of it being the norm and laziness. If you have a hectic schedule, then if anything it's more important to make the effort to teach them to do things independently. If you're a sahp with a supportive partner, a cleaner and one toddler, you've got plenty of time to be dressing your 3/4/5 yr old in the morning. If you aren't in that position then it's more time efficient to teach them to do things themselves.
You just get up early enough and practice things in the evening or at weekends etc. Taking the lazy route causes more work in the long term because they don't suddenly become independently minded at 11 when they're launched into secondary.

[duggiecustard]

What do you mean it doesn't follow? There is a wealth of evidence on the subject.

[hazeyjane]

colley - I am studying for a Level 3 NVQ in Early Years at the moment, so all the information about child development, child care theories, observations, assessments and planning for activities can be replaced with the one instruction 'let them get on with it, they will do it in their own time' - who knew!

[Lurkedforever1]

Re the getting a dx. I never said or even implied it was easier to get one years ago, or that it was more pleasant to have sn in the past. My point was if we had the same age expected milestones as 30 years ago, then with today's knowledge of sn it would be easier to spot in some cases, and therefore support a child who was struggling to achieve them.
My 4yr old can't dress themselves/ still uses a pram/ use a knife and fork/ ride a bike/ get a cold drink/ wears a nappy in the day/ speak in sentences/ few fine motor skills etc doesn't scream 'possible sn' if they can't do most of those. It just blends in perfectly well with the numerous nt able bodied healthy kids that can't do them either because they've never been taught. And raising the concern that your dc might have another reason for struggling in those areas, because they have had the upbringing to learn, is likely to be brushed off with 'yeah, well lots of 4yr olds are the same'.

[duggiecustard]

I think those things would stand out significantly lurked. We have been told dd has 3 year delay and she could do all the above at 4.

[NewLife4Me]

I think the main problem is proportioning responsibility.
you would imagine that it was 50/50 with a pre school education and parenting.
with the best will in the world a nursery nurse isn't going to have the time or resources to teach children and prepare them for school.
They can model techniques and show the child, but unless they pick it up straight away they will need lots of encouragement and practice.
Parents can't be expected to do all of this if they aren't with their children much during the week.
There needs to be a set of guidelines as to what is expected and who is responsible for what.
Some pre school education is just moving from the toddler room and carrying on much as before, many don't have teachers. Some parents don't do much pre school education with their children. In this case they aren't likely to be ready for school under these conditions.
A balance between the two should be the most efficient way of preparing children for school, but also we need to consider the huge difference between development in children of this age.

[derxa]

Well my observation is purely anecdotal. Thirty years ago I was a SALT in a very economically deprived area. I saw the children in the clinic until their speech (not language) had improved. Gradually there were so many referrals that children were seen in 'six week blocks'. I'm sure people have described the reasons for all of this above.
The thing is if you do not communicate with your child face to face then they don't learn language/communication skills/social skills. As someone said upthread some children hear a very restricted code of language and others hear an elaborated code. If you have poor phonological knowledge then you are going to find it difficult to learn to read. Being read to at night is vital. Singing songs and nursery rhymes.
Some people seem to treat their children a bit like objects. They sit in state of the art push chairs etc. with dummies in their mouths and are 'parked' as a previous poster said.
Recently I was privileged to listen to a girl and her mum and maybe aunt on a tram. The girl looked about 9 and she was in a wheelchair. She seemed to have quite severe SN. Her spoken language was poor and quite repetitive. However the 2 adults chatted with her the whole journey and in an appropriate way. At one point she pressed an emergency button by mistake and the train was stopped. They explained clearly what happened and didn't let her get upset.

[Lottapianos]

'Some people seem to treat their children a bit like objects'

Very much agree derxa. Objects that are expected to be as quiet and convenient as possible at all times. A worrying number of parents don't seem to have any clue how to be around a child - chatting, laughing, playing, joining in with what they enjoy - much less what can reasonably be expected at different ages. A previous poster used the word 'priority' and I think that nails it. I have worked with parents for whom their child's development and wellbeing just doesn't seem to be something that they're particularly interested in or motivated by. For some parents, children seem to be part of the furniture - just 'there'. The idea that they are a person in their own right, with needs, and quirks, and challenges, just doesn't seem to be a part of their thinking. Like the parents mentioned upthread who was annoyed by her 1 year old finding his feet because now he will be 'into everything', rather than feeling pleased and proud that he's developing - I'm not shocked by that any more. Horrified, but not shocked.

This doesn't apply to all parents of course, nowhere near. However, where I work, its a significant minority.

[colley]

Parenting styles have changed. My point was that nursery staff tend to be young and so don't necessarily realise how much parenting has changed in such a short space of time.

I remember about 10 years ago starting to see comments on parenting sites recommending others to wait until their child was over 3 before trying to toilet train, as it was easier. I suspect the commenter who said that while it is easier for some children, leaving it makes it harder for others, is right.

I also agree that the expectations of young children can at times be very low. I have seen people on here all agreeing that expecting a child being able to tie laces at 5 is unrealistic. Whereas it used to be expected that most children would have mastered this by 5 years of age.

[Lottapianos]

And what can be done about all this? Well I would like to see a huge financial investment from the government in support for parents through Children's Centre, with free courses available which parents (including expectant parents) are expected to attend. We need a cultural shift where parents are expected and supported to learn what a child needs, and broadly what the developmental norms are at various ages, how to manage challenging behaviour, how to set routines and boundaries, how to manage sleep difficulties, when and how to wean, and all of that.

If a child is receiving inadequate support, care or stimulation at home, I don't see how removing them into a childcare setting for 15 or 30 hours a week is the solution. It may be part of the solution, but that child will always be spending more time at home than they do in nursery and in school. Those parents will be the child's parents for life and if their skills are lacking, that's where investment needs to go. I have seen the entire parent-child relationship being re-set for the better through good quality early intervention for both parent and child and I disagree very strongly with the current ideological obsession with getting children into settings as early as possible.

[colley]

I too think parent and toddler groups used to have a positive influence. The Government effectively destroyed them.
Maybe obligatory parenting classes at school for 15 year olds?

[Lottapianos]

colley, it might be a very good idea for 15 year olds to spend (highly supervised!) time around young children. Whether you go on to become a parent or not, most adults spend time with young children at some point, and advice about how to play, interact and support them could be very useful. I also think that teenagers should be made aware of the option of remaining childfree as an adult and the considerable benefits (for some people) of doing so.

So that's yet another thing for schools to get busy with! They get more and more piled on their plates each year....

[colley]

Yes I know. It is probably unrealistic to expect schools to do this as well as everything else.
But the kind of support that is needed to turn things around will be very costly. Particularly worrying that more and more children are needing speech therapy.

[Lottapianos]

'But the kind of support that is needed to turn things around will be very costly'

Indeed. Costly and long term - 2 things that send governments running away screaming! It would be an excellent investment in the future of course but that doesn't seem to quite register