AIBU to think that most of us take the NHS for granted?

[Kampeki]

My niece has recently given birth to twins. They were born prematurely, and both have had breathing difficulties. She and her husband are from a small rural community, and they have very little money. So far, they have exhausted all of their savings to keep the babies in intensive care, as well as all of the savings of her husband's extended family. If we were not able to send them money from here, she would have to take them home.

My dd spent a week in the special care baby unit after she was born, and it was a horribly stressful time, but I didn't even give a second thought to how much her medical care was costing. I took it for granted that she would get the support that she needed.

My niece and her babies will get the help that they need, but I wonder how many other women around the world are forced to take their premature babies home because they can't afford to stay in hospital.

Made me realise how very lucky we are. We must never let the government take our NHS away.

Lunchbox - Get shot of management? Really, just bin them off?

That'll go brilliantly. The nurses aren't busy, they can do all the service planning too. All the services can contract manage themselves. The CCGs could in fact just pack up and go home. They can take the CSUs with them, they'll be privatised soon anyway (allegedly)

Do you have any idea what "managers" in the NHS actually do? The NHS is one of the leanest organisations already when it comes to management. Bleating on about getting rid of management is popularist rubbish. Management may not be flawless and needs a lot of work and improvement but the idea that we just get rid of it and hope the NHS somehow just runs itself is utterly bizarre.

Well said Cinderella. The NHS front line staff do not have time to manage the service too.

Christ yes, please don't get rid of the ragged shreds of management we have left. Obviously there is perverse stuff that feels very top down, but show me an organisation where nobody complains about that.

I am greatful today

My DS had a temperature, suddenly went downhill very quickly, very hot and clingy. Spoke to 111 who got me an out of hours doc appointment at local minor injuries hospital. Lovely doc saw my son after an acceptable wait and gave me a prescription for antibiotics. Much better looking son went to bed, and not once was I made to feel like I was over reacting.

I remember dh visiting me right after the birth of our first child and saying that he didn't resent the high charges in the hospital car park as he'd got a rough idea in his head how much my treatment must have cost - forceps birth with an extra nights stay due to DS getting low blood sugar.
My second child arrived after an emcs and neededed a day in special care and the cost of all that would be beyond us. Do I take the NHS for granted? Not any more.
I was never someone who would make unnecessary appointments or miss them, but I have to admit it never really occurred to me what it must be like to live without the system we have. It's not perfect, but it beats the alternative by a very long way.
BTW, I have a friend who works in NHS admin. If shes booted out along with managers then who will organise the oncology appointments in my local hospital? She also makes sure all test results are logged properly and passed to the relevant people. Well, her and the small team she manages. She has told me on many occasions how crap the doctors she works with are at admin!

Not had much to do with hospitals for twenty years since my were born but this year my daughter was rushed in and had an emergency section and my husband was diagnosed with Cancer

The care they received and in my husbands case is still receiving was superb. The staff have been so caring and helpful.

I can see their frustration though at times, so much to do and always juggling.

In between one of his chemo weeks he developed another condition which entailed him having to be taken to our local,hospital a and e. I was disgusted with the way the staff there were treated by some patients and families, Ok so it may nor be perfect but I for one am grateful it's there

I don't take the NHS for granted at all but I think a lot of the time it's easy to forget just how hard it would be for uk families if it wasn't there.

My toddler spent three nights in hospital last week (v poorly, scarlet fever, various secondary infections, concerns about possible blood infection) being treated with IV anti biotics. Thanks to the sensible risk-aversion and expertise and skill and care of the various NHS doctors and nurses who cared for him (bloody brilliant and lovely, the whole lot of them) he's well on the road to recovery.

But I have no idea how much his care would have cost had the NHS not been there. Tonight, as every night since he became ill, I am full of gratitude but conscious that I'm actually pretty ignorant about the costs of medical provision. Aka 'taking the NHS for granted'.

YANBU OP. I suspect that many of us who owe so much to the NHS are actually fairly guilty of doing as I've done this week.

to your family.

YANBU, at my (soon to close) OOH dental sessions, patients who get free prescriptions ask me for scripts for paracetamol and ibuprofen. It would cost them pence to buy... They get it free on prescription so they want it free.

I agree with you op.

Certainly, I never appreciated how lucky we are to have the nhs until my family needed it. My husband had to ring 111, was told to go to A&E and they sent a taxi round to pick him up (he wasn't in need of an ambulance, but we had no way of getting to the hospital).

The young HCA who was trying to take his blood (DH has problems giving blood, his veins seem to go poof) and administer pain management went above and beyond in being kind, reassuring and compassionate, and at 3am on a Friday night too. After dh was admitted, I happened to walk past the vacancy board; based on what was advertised, he'd be earning less than our office juniors, who mostly deal with filing and making coffee.

Dh ended up being in hospital for the best part of six months. That would have broken us, if we'd have had to pay even a tenth of what it probably cost.

I'd happily pay more tax to have the service, but I think they need to look after their frontline staff more.

People who moan about the NHS/ take it for granted need to remember that you can get private healthcare in the UK too. You have the option yet most people prefer to moan. Would also relieve some of the pressure on the NHS! But few people would want to pay £50 to see their GP.

I am pregnant, so about to make a massive 'withdrawal' from the NHS. DH and I have saved for baby stuff etc, but could not afford it anytime soon had we had to pay what I believe is £20k for a 'normal problem free' birth and all the care leading up to it/afterwards. I'm anxious enough as it is about problems and that's without having any money worries! I don't think I could deal with the stress of that too!

I know people have bad experiences on the NHS but when you really need it and couldn't afford it, let's hope it's always there.

Personally, I and my close family have had very mixed experiences with the NHS.

However I DO think a lot of money is wasted on stupid prescriptions that people should pay for and unnecessary visits to A&E.

I work in a busy NHS department and sometimes waits can be lengthy, some people are happy to wait and are appreciative of the FREE service. Some people complain and become nasty. We live in a very entitled society and people think their needs should be met before others.

I also agree that non attendance for appointments is costing the NHS a lot of money. I'm sure that lost appointment letters only account for a very small number of these. Most days 20% to 50% of appointments are missed, in the departments I've worked in. These are slots someone else could have had and also the people who haven't attended expect to be rebooked. (I used to work in a department that performed tests on patients with cancer, checking for spread of the disease or response to treatment.) It used to bug me every day that an appointment missed could have been given to someone desperate to find out if their cancer had spread (I bet they'd turn up for their appointment.) Providing free healthcare to anyone from anywhere in the world will also take it's toll on the NHS.

I think older people appreciate the NHS more because they remember earlier times when you had to look after yourself or pay. Younger people have grown up thinking it's free.

Oh, I read today that dental
Students are struggling to obtain competencies because they can't see enough patients. Not enoug patients for free treatment overseen by some of the most eminent specialists in the UK. This is being chalked up to entitlement and lack of understanding of rights vs responsibilities. Shame!!

mom2twoteens I think you have a good point. Many of us have had no experience of a time or place when we couldn't see a gp or access treatment free at the point of access. its very easy to take for granted what you've always had.

My mum has various ongoing health conditions; in the us she would, I think, be reliant on medic-aid/care (?) as there is no way she could afford health insurance premiums. I think the fact that she can access the same healthcare as anyone else who chooses not to go private is bloody marvellous.

I think most people see the NHS through rose tinted glasses
it can be brilliant\but omg it can be shite\I am someone who has experience of the shite end.
omg I wish I had been "private" the some fucker would have paid.\someone would have lost their job and the other person would have been struck off.

I'm always fascinated by threads about the NHS. I'm in Ireland, where we don't have free at the point of service healthcare for everyone. It's free if you have a medical card, but it's increasingly difficult to qualify for one. You have to earn below a certain income, or have certain medical conditions, and the criteria for medical conditions is strict. So DP, who has epilepsy and needs at least three or four visits to his Neurologist (at over 200 quid a go) a year doesn't qualify for one. Nor does my Mum, who has a chronic lung condition, and is on steroids and antibiotics regularly. We have health insurance, but it doesn't cover GP visits. We were very grateful for it when DP suffered a serious head injury a few years back. His hospital bill would have been in the tens of thousands. So health insurance is great for that kind of situation, but so very poor when it comes to day to day care.

My local A&E has a €100 charge, which must be paid before you are even seen by the triage nurse (except for people brought in by ambulance, bleeding profusely, suffering severe chest pain, etc).

I do think some people are less appreciative of healthcare when it's free. MIL, for example, has a medical card. She also visits her GP at least once a week. For everything from a headache to a stubbed toe. DP and I couldn't dream of doing that, as it costs us €60 a visit.

My sister travels to the UK for work almost every week. A while back she got to whatever town she was in at the time and realised that she had forgotten to bring her pill with her. So she went in to a pharmacy, gave them the name of her pill, and asked if there was any chance she could purchase a week's supply. She was handed a full 3 month supply and told that there was no charge. I was gobsmacked, the last time I had free medication was when I was a child and had a medical card due to my asthma. DP's prescription costs around €180 a month, mine (for hypothyroidism and fibro) anywhere between €20 and €100, depending on my current medication.

I'll admit, I have frequently been envious of posters on here, who have free access to presumably top notch healthcare. Though the flip side is, I've seen many people post about waiting 2 weeks for an appointment with their GP. I can always get a same day appointment with mine. He's even started work early so I can have blood tests done at 7.30 and get to work on time.

Sorry, that was a complete tangent, but I find the differences in healthcare in two neighbouring countries fascinating.

Samcro, I think my father might have lived if there hadn't been a series of cockups delaying his diagnosis by a couple of months.

. . . and don't get me started on mental health 'care' in this country. As a carer, I've been dealing with CAMHS, ICOS, Healthy Minds, GPs, A&E, RAID (you're wasting our time) (after three suicide attempts: one requiring three nights stay to recover and one whilst an inpatient in a MH ward ! ! !) DBT, CBT, CPN, Psychiatrists, Psychologists, and many others in and out of hospital and still no treatment - just lots of assessments and people covering their arses. I'm the carer and much more of this and I'll be needing help too.

Samcro, I think my father might have lived if there hadn't been a series of cockups delaying his diagnosis by a couple of months.

. . . and don't get me started on mental health 'care' in this country. As a carer, I've been dealing with CAMHS, ICOS, Healthy Minds, GPs, A&E, RAID (you're wasting our time) (after three suicide attempts: one requiring three nights stay to recover and one whilst an inpatient in a MH ward ! ! !) DBT, CBT, CPN, Psychiatrists, Psychologists, and many others in and out of hospital and still no treatment - just lots of assessments and people covering their arses. I'm the carer and much more of this and I'll be needing help too.

I think many of us as users and many Drs are very wasteful of NHS resources.

The amount of preseriptions that are dispensed and never used runs into tens of millions of £ a year.
People ask for and are given things on prescription that they could buy at the chemist.
Drs prescribe things that are not needed

People book Drs appointments and just don't turn up. Hugely wasteful.
People don't turn up to hospital appointments or when they have surgery booked- just don't turn up on the day to be admitted.

We have developed an entitlement culture about it.

It is one of our most precious national resources and we should treasure it and protect it.

I believe in the next few decades it will disappear as the NHS and in the future this will be looked back on as an amazing time in healthcare in this country.

I think people do sometimes take it for granted. However the NHS is not free. It is free at the point of use, but anyone who pays tax has contributed to it.

I do appreciate the fact that we have a free at point of use health service.

And as AnneElliot it is not free, people pay for it via their taxes. The people who work in the NHS are paid, they do not work for nothing. Yes, many NHS employees work extra hours in a difficult job, but that is true in many lines of work.

However, I do see that the NHS has a lot of problems...long and increasing waiting lists, drug rationing, 15% higher likelihood of dying if you are admitted at the weekend, inability of hospitals to see complete gp records (and vice versa) to name but a few. The type of treatment that can be accessed is constrained and sometimes out of date for many conditions.

In some parts of the NHS, there are huge problems of tone and attitude towards patients. Lectures about not wasting a doctor's time, turning up for appointments, not expecting antibiotics.

But on the flip side, how many people wait months to see a specialist, or have spent a long time in a waiting room because a doctor is running late? How many people are passed back and forth between different departments/disciplines with no-one really taking responsibility?

When my mum had cancer, she would often receive a letter detailing the date of her next appointment with a specialist on the day of that appointment or even the day after. She was made to feel like she was a burden for seeking treatment and asking questions about what was happening to her and that she didn't matter, when she was terribly, terribly ill and scared anyway.

These things are just blame shifted onto people who don't turn up, lack of funding etc, but some of it is poor organisation and bad attitude.

It is entirely possible to appreciate something but realise that there is room for improvement. the NHS is suffering from being treated as either a political football or a sacred cow and neither of these things is good for an organisation.

I've never taken it for granted but luckily I've never needed to rely on it too much.

The other week I was very grateful for it when baby DD developed some little spots on her arm one evening that looked like the meningitis rash. I know the 111 service gets a lot of shit but they were amazing. Got us an OOH GP appt straight away and she was seen within the hour (totally fine, thankfully). Could not fault that at all.

I think where it falls down sometimes (IME at least) is with booked appointments. I had to have a tooth out at our dental hospital and they were running a good two hours late. Whenever I make a GP appt (which thankfully isn't too often) I just assume they'll be running late. I don't think it's necessarily the NHS's fault though - my friend is an NHS manager and the amount of juggling they have to do to manage resources is unbelievable. They recently had three weeks to overhaul an entire ward structure when they're meant to give staff a good couple of months' notice. It was ridiculous.

I think as well that even NHS staff take other services for granted, or use them unnecessarily. When I was pregnant I'd had an additional scan to check my placenta was no longer low lying. Everything was fine, sonographer said I'd be good to go for induction if needed. But because she didn't write in my notes exactly how much the placenta was clear by, my midwife sent me to the hospital for a consultant to check my scan notes and images. The consultant we saw was baffled as to why I'd even been sent, said they'd only be more specific if there was a problem. It was such a waste of time and resources - just a simple phone call could have cleared it up I'm sure.

But - saying all of that - I know family members who have had a bad time with much bigger issues. I have a family member, now sadly deceased, who I do think the NHS failed to an extent. Could it have happened anywhere? Maybe. I think the NHS is so stretched though that when things go wrong they really go wrong.

It's socialised healthcare, it's not magic.
Till recently we lived in Switzerland where there is a private system with government guarantee and subsidy for people on low incomes. People with a decent income pay a lot more than in the UK but as a result, for example, when my kids are ill at night I can take them to the local children's hospital where they have a 24h minor ailments clinic running alongside the A&E. Never waited more than about 10 minutes to be seen. Clean, comfortable, uncrowded, full of toys and books. I'm happy to pay the big health insurance for that and doubly happy knowing that due to the subsidy, people on low incomes are receiving the same high standard of care. My experience of the NHS has been that for anything life threatening, if you can make your way through the layers of bureaucracy to an actual qualified expert then everything happens pretty quickly and efficiently and your life is saved. But the treatment is rough, you come out feeling worse than when you went in, and good luck if you're elderly or confused, have complex problems requiring treatment from more than one specialist or you don't have the confidence (and the posh accent) required to influence the NHS gatekeepers you encounter while trying to get anyone to take you seriously. I don't think it's something to be proud of, that the UK has an NHS. We pay the minimum, we get no frills treatment, and if you're rich you can go private and get a fancy bed and a shorter waiting time but if you're poor you can take your chances.

I don't take the nhs for granted. But I do realise it's not perfect or working at its best.

I was in hospital for 2 days before I gave birth. The maternity wards had been open 3 days and the staff were great. But the whole thing was so unorganised. No one could find which cupboard medication was in etc. the day after I gave birth dh went and got some food for me on the ward. There were 3 mangers watching the food being handed out, making observations. When plates ran out it took all 3 of them almost 10 minutes to decide what to do. It's not a big issue, but the whole time we were there, there loads of managers justs generally getting in the way.

Dh had medical treatment in the US it was fast, organised and fantastic. However 6 hours in hospital cost $2000. We were insured so no problems there for us. No administrators asking us questions or interrupting staff while they were working.

I don't want to see the end of the nhs, but I do think it needs changing. My dad works for ther NHS and he feels the same.

I hate this kind of rhetoric.

Comparing the NHS to the worst system out there, the us one.

The NHS is almost untouchable on here when in fact it should be doing a lot better. The French system is much better and people do have to pay for it, but end up claiming most of it back (all with top up insurance). I think the NHS should charge, people see it as a free system and treat it that way. At least charge for missed appointments.