To be RAGING at BIL?

[rageagainsttheBIL]

NCed.

BIL (actually my DH's BIL) thought it would be really funny to teach my 2 year old to shout "you're gay!" at people. I was deeply unimpressed but ignored it and my DC didn't really repeat it.

Fast forward nearly 3 months, and we are visiting SIL and BIL and their children. BIL again teaches toddler to shout "You're gay!" in front of some friends and family. A few people snigger / shriek etc, DC thinks it is fun to get a reaction and repeats. DH and I shoot daggers at BIL but don't want to make a big deal of it in front of DC, we're about to get in the car and leave anyway.

We get home and in past few days DC has been randomly shouting it out even while playing alone - not frequently but have heard it a few times. DH and I are just ignoring it when DC says it and not reacting as think that is probably the best thing to do.

I'm sure it will all be history in a few weeks but I'm absolutely FUMING at BIL and massively want to give him a very angry piece of my mind, I'm struggling to let it go which is what I'd usually do to keep the peace when it comes to DH's family.

Am I BU and overreacting? Should I say something?

(For backstory, BIL is in his 40s, thinks he's hilarious, and thinks a lot of himself - he's v successful, wealthy, aggressive, thinks he's always right and will shout people down. He can be really charming, and sweet with DC when he wants to be. We don't see him v often, but DC and cousins are close and love playing together so keeping away from him not really an option)

Why does seeing your SIL and her DC have to involve seeing him?

We very rarely get to see SIL and the children unless we go to stay at their house, or at MILs where both we and they stay over. We can't afford hotels etc near them (they live in a v expensive area). They won't come to us. Hence BIL is usually there.

Until recently that was fine, he can be a bit of a prick (no shit, Sherlock) but generally we get on alright.

They won't come to us. Hence BIL is usually there.

They've made their priorities incredibly clear. Why do you allow these people in your life?

OP... do you realise the trouble you/your DC can get into if someone reports you/your child for yelling this in public?

Homophobia is viewed as a hate crime. And, believe me, it is taken extremely seriously by the police these days. Your DC - albeit it unwittingly, because as a little one, he doesn't actually know any better - is being homophobic when he shouts this at people. People who may, or may not be involved in a same-sex relationship. People who may, or may not, have parents who are involved in a same-sex relationship.

A few years ago, my daughter was homophobically bullied online and in school, by a young man whose parents allowed him to use the phrase "you're gay!" as an insult. That was his stock go-to insult. Unfortunately for him... or perhaps not, as it taught him/his parents a short and very sharp shock of a lesson... I didn't take the discovery that he was bullying my daughter in this way, particularly lightly.

When the school laughed about it, and it became obvious they weren't going to deal with it at all, I reported him to the police.

And before someone jumps on me claiming that I was "being too drastic"... my grandmother was involved in a same-sex relationship for over half a century. Whilst homosexuality was still illegal. She and her partner raised three children (from my grandmother's first marriage), and I know - because I've been told, and I've witnessed first hand the damage that it did - that my father and his brothers were horrendously bullied because of it. Their relationship was never "out"... but people knew. And because of it, my Dad and his brothers were constantly taunted with "you're gay!". So, to discover that all these decades later, it was still being used as an insult... and knowing that it's now deemed a hate crime... and wanting the boy to learn that it's actually unacceptable to label someone, to bully someone, to taunt someone, to drive someone towards suicide, perhaps on the weight of their sexuality (something which can't be chosen, is not a choice, but as inherent as the colour eyes you're born with), whilst showing my daughter that it's okay to be whatever she wants to be... gay or straight... that I would support her no matter what... I reported him. And that boy's parents ended up in more trouble than he did (although he had a non-molestation order slapped on him, which made their joint secondary school lessons a little difficult!).

So.

I suggest you stop your toddler from continuing down this line, for his/your sake, and stand up to your homophobic bully of a sort-of-BIL.

YOU set the line for your children, OP. They'll look to you for how they ought to behave. Stand up and show them how to be decent members of a wider society before it's too late.

Why do you allow these people in your life?

Because they are my DH's family and he loves them? not BIL

There are practical reasons too. We don't have much room to put them up, and also we have reason to go to where they live (DH's other siblings and some friends of ours live there too) more than they have reason to come to us.

Having said that, DH is definitely treated as the least important person in his family. He is simply expected to go along with everyone else and made to feel guilty when he can't/won't. Everyone in his family makes decisions on what they will do together, then invites DH/us to join them.

I am due to have DC2 next year and DH realised yesterday the EDD is 3 days before MIL's 70th birthday. I said to DH - "I won't be going to the birthday party then - and you probably won't either." The look of panic on his face was awful as he anticipated the remarks he'd get in response to telling them the news.

There are practical reasons too. We don't have much room to put them up, and also we have reason to go to where they live (DH's other siblings and some friends of ours live there too) more than they have reason to come to us.

You keep making excuses for them. Some of the time, fine. ALL of the time = doormat.

Your DH seems to have very strange feelings about his family (panicking because he'll have to tell them you can't make the do because you've just had a baby? Seriously???)

Anyway, back to your OP - you have to put your foot down or god knows what he'll be teaching your child in the next 14 years of his life (or beyond). That's my advice (this being AIBU, after all).

I think a lot of you are giving the OP a really hard time when she is obviously posting here for support and advice.

She knows 'you're gay' is a homophohic insult. She doesn't need educating around that and is obviously deeply uncomfortable with her 2 year old saying it.

What she needs is some support around how to stand up to her difficult BIL in the face of some tricky family dynamics.

Instead she is getting bullied by some posters accusing her of being weak and telling her she should be ashamed of herself. Because of course all of you would have said something immediately and not been 'doormats'.

Not MN at it's finest.

But she's still making excuses for BIL now, online, with strangers. Saying he's not homophobic. Yes, he is, of course he is!

Don't send that message. Just say " is shouting "you're gay" at all and sundry. It's not at all funny and I don't want anything similar happening again. Thanks, Rage"

If he responds, just ignore it or change the subject. It's largely about putting you in a positon where you are being embarassed by your kid's actions anyway. Just shut it down as abruptly as possible and don't engage in any further discussion.

What does it matter if BIL is homophobic or not, not OPs problem.

What she needs help with is how to tackle this issue of BIL teaching her DS to say inappropriate things.

If BIL is homophobic or just a twat is really not here nor there. But OP needs to work out how to tell him to shut it, and if he doesn't, then she potentially needs to break contact with him.

It seems that OP is worried about the implications regarding standing up for herself against BIL and/or breaking contact... the impact this will have on her DH and the overall family dynamic.

This is what she needs support with, not a lecture on her enabling someone else's homophobia. OP is not responsible for this, only for the influences she allows around her DS.

But SeaMagic, surely by continuing to allow her DC around BIL, she is enabling the homophobia. Because BIL is teaching the OP's child to be homophobic.

What happens if the OP's DC is gay, themselves?

Can you imagine the confusion, and the fear, and the self-loathing which they might feel in years to come, if this is the case, because OP and her husband have allowed them to be around someone so blatantly homophobic as this sort-of-BIL...?!

Or what happens if the OP's DC2, or 3, or... however many she ends up being Mum to... turn out to be gay, with an elder sibling who has been taught that "you're gay!" is an acceptable insult?

If the OP doesn't nip this in the bud now, there may well be long-term implications for her, her DH and their children.

OP, my post wasn't meant as a lecture, incidentally, more as a salutary warning. You really can't ignore this in your DC, they need to learn that it's not a nice thing to be yelling at people at all. And your DH needs to stand up to his BIL about the things he's teaching your children. Because if the wrong person overhears it, you and your DH - as the parents of your DC - will be the ones getting into trouble right now. Not your sort-of-BIL.

Sorry, SeaMagic but she's been given helpful advice and has continued to post weak excuses and attempts to hand responsibility over to her DH (who we know doesn't like standing up to him either). Most people are simply pointing out that saying nothing (either to her DS or her BIL) or saying it in a wishy-washy way is not going to resolve the situation.

And re: the homophobic nature of the comment, I think a lot of people are feeling she's not taking it seriously enough (eg as seriously as she would take it if BIL taught her son to say n***), so I don't blame them for feeling they need to reiterate that saying "You're gay!" is NOT acceptable.

bil has long ago established control over d h and now he using your child as a toy to demonstrate his power. Bil is laughing at all of you . He will do more and worse and you and your cc will suffer. Your dh desperately needs counselling and support to be able to stand up for his cc . The bil will not stop. His bullying tactics have worked well for him . Family dynamics are the hardest to change but your dh needs to do this very hard work for the sake of his family. Can you get him to counselling?

Thank you SeaMagic for your empathy. Reacting in real life that way to a huge (in the physical sense) dominating bully is quite hard especially for people like me who have historically been deferent especially within this family dynamic. Both DH and I have found this very upsetting which is the reason I started this thread to get some outside perspective.

I'm not making any "excuses" for BIL. The reason I don't think he's homophobic is because he socialises and is friends with several LGBT people to my knowledge and from what I remember has celebrated/ supported gay rights etc. Maybe it's possible to do these things and be homophobic. Obviously this appears at odds with what he thinks is funny to teach my 2 year old.

DH is going to email him along the lines of the above. I've told DH that I don't want to see BIL until we've had a decent apology for this either.

I dislike the way he parents and treats SIL. He shouts at his kids, scares them and shows them little respect. He's moody and belittles and shouts at his wife in front of them (and anyone else).

Your primary role as a parent is to protect your children and that includes protecting them from neanderthal family members. You do not have to see them "just because they are family". That is just daft.

TenForward these are not really attempts to hand responsibility over to her DH - surely DH is just as if not more responsible than me anyway so I'm not "handing it over" to him, and it seems more appropriate for him to talk to his family members - as many other posters have alluded to?

EddieStobart I think you make a very good point actually. He will use whatever we give him as ammunition against us so we need to keep it v simple.

armami Yes I think DH would benefit from counselling and learning how to be assertive; he has an unhealthy relationship with some family members especially MIL, and the dynamic between his DM and DF probably explains a lot of his attitudes and behaviours. He'll go along with stuff, but then be secretly very resentful.

if you don't like what he's doing you (and especially your dh) need to put on your big girl pants and harness your mother tiger and tell him

tbh I wouldn't bother with an email now, so many days after the fact, but instead prepare yourself for calmly but assertively dealing with it at the time the next time it happens. If he gets aggressive/moodie/shouty about it you stay calm but don't back down on the issue, then your dh tells his sister he won't see her husband again with your dc until stops behaving like a prick.

Rage I get that this is really difficult for you and dealing with it 'on the spot' can be challenging. I also agree with you that your DH is just as much part of the solution as you are and spading in that this is family makes it all the harder. It is much easier to sit at a keyboard believing/knowing you would you do things differently than actually being there.

However, you are now addressing the issue and, for that, well done (not meant to sound patronising!). Short, simple and to the point - no wiggle room for misunderstanding of either your intention or expectation of the outcome.

Nope, NBU at all, I'd go bezerk at anyone saying that within earshot of DCs let alone specifically teaching them to repeat it.

I think your DH is doing the right thing emailing him to explain just how disgusting the behaviour was, but you have two choices; you go back and visit and spend more time with him (and give him opportunity to teach them more vile stuff which he will do because he's a self-important tit) or you stay away. I know I'd happily stay away from him; the "you're gay" is bad enough, but added onto shouting at his DCs and DW he sounds like an enormous cock and not someone I'd let my DCs within a hairy mile of.

Your BIL sounds like a narcissistic arsehole. I think the whole 'You're gay' thing is a red herring. I agree with poster upthread - this is about him showing his power, lording it over you and especially your DH. If he's goldenchild, be prepared for the backlash from the rest of the family if you rock the boat by telling them all he's in the wrong. For your own sense of self worth (and to protect your children), I think you need to make a stand but unfortunately it will probably come back on you. Narcissists don't like being called out as twats and they tend respond aggressively.

X-posted. I suspected as much. Be prepared for fall out from this and be ready to distance yourselves a bit. Don't be surprised if your DH ends up angry at you because 'you're making a fuss' - he will be very uncomfortable with going 'against' the family / party line. It is very difficult when a family has this dynamic - I have some experience of it myself (my family) and have distanced myself somewhat.

Your dh family sound toxic. And I'm another one saying that this has little to do with whether or not bil is homophobic. He is undermining your parenting of dc and bullying.

I would be prepared to go low or non contact with them. How far away do your in laws live? I'd be thing of return trips in know day to limit the damage. Or extending gaps between tripsa lot

One day sorry.

BIL needs to dominate. He is a bully. When your DH stands up to him, however meekly with an email, he is going to fight back. Maybe directly maybe not. But he will be sure to extert his supremecy. Be prepared.

There are family members my children very rarely see because they are bullies and their enablers. It is a shame my DC don't see their DC but that's better than the alternative.

I would much rather deal with the fallout of cutting him off than being dragged into school because of your child's inappropriate comments. What will be next? Race and religion?

Do you want to end up the mum of a child who is seen to be bigoted because of this man? How do you think others will view you or you child if this continues and do you think your reasons would be a good enough excuse to say to other parents of a child who yours says these things to?

How your child behaves in the word will be seen as a reflection of you and your husband, not your bil.