to wonder why teachers are so sure school is better than home Ed for all children?

[IceBeing]

An acquaintance is thinking of removing her 5 yo from school as he has started self-harming due to anxiety about going.

The school seem to be all over themselves to tell the parent that there is no way home ed would be preferable to carrying on in school.

What makes schools so very certain on this point and what would it take for a school to admit a child might be better off being taught at home for a spell or even entirely?

Singsongsung, I'm not sure what you think HE is, but I can assure you that my children do not miss out on any of the activities that you have listed!

Their social circle has a wider variety of backgrounds than it would if they only had school friends from our small town (though I'm sure plenty of those children have friends from elsewhere too), they have trips and workshops involving experts, they do all sorts of hands on and creative activities, they do group work most weeks, and they spend time without parents doing clubs and other activities, and visiting friends and family.

Why would a child who struggled to make friends at school be any more capable of making friends in a HE scenario?

Well, maybe they wouldn't. I'm sure it depends on the circumstances, and they may be some children who would struggle no matter how they were supported. But for most children, I think the key would be that their parents could plan for and coach them through their social interactions. They could find a group that was most likely to suit them - big and noisy, or just a few others families? Focused on a particular activity, or running around the playground? Adult or child led? And so on. During the activity they could make suggestions - who to sit with, even what to say to them - and be a safe haven if it all got too much. They could chat to other parents and arrange to get together outside of the group. If they felt comfortable, they could talk to one or two parents about their child's difficulties and ask for their (and their child's) support. And I'm sure many more things besides.

Yawn! Your friends child's issues are serious and pulling him out of school might be an option but it isn't the only option or the first one to take. Secondly, trawling schools getting their opinions on Home Ed is just incredibly naive, Home Ed is as good as the person delivering it. I would probably recommend school over Home Ed over a complete stranger whose abilities I had no prior knowledge of and who appeared not to have done a lot of independent research.

And what is the "Scandi approach" exactly, I'm sure there's a lot more to it than starting formal education at a later age. Having friends who are Danish, Sweedish and Fins I understand that the education systems of some Scandinavian countries is a reflection on the norms and values of thise countries and the education system didn't evolve in isolation. My friends don't seem too perturbed at putting their children in a non 'Scandi' education system. It's a bit like when people write about the 'European' education system, like Europe is one big homogeneous land. I live in mainland Europe and everything they bitch about in the UK is bitched about here, except school starting age. Hell, Rotterdam is floating ideas of starting children at school at two years, though mainly to help counter the low attainment levels of some immigrant children (do not get me started on this short sighted idea).

Home Ed like School, has its advantages and disadvantes but pitting one system against the others in a 'what is better competition', without first taking into account the needs of the individual child and the family set-up, is just lazy.

What is the point of this thread exactly?

We have all these and it means we are well placed to be part of the team supporting children's mental health in school

No, you may very well be for some children you will certainly not be for others. Many schools with this service just think they are well placed without being. And some it causes more problems than it prevents. Just the same as every other service.

Nurses and all of those other services are more readily availible and accessible outside of school and many families do not think the two should be merged unless strictly needed.

PieceofPaper- let me think of some of the activities that have taken place at the two schools I have connections with in the last few months alone and tell me whether you have such opportunities as a home educator...
A visit from a life size dinosaur robot and it's 'keeper', a science day where the children did experiments all day with scientists present, an African drumming workshop led by fantastic drummers in full costume, a musical theatre class taught by a musical director direct from the west end, a cookery workshop delivered by a professional chef, a huge range of sporting opportunities and competitions etc etc and honestly that's just the tip of the iceberg and just the last few months.
Schools have resources, both financial and human that no home educator can hope to emulate unless they are incredibly wealthy.
And yes you can visit museums and activities outside of school but my children do that as well as attending school and accessing everything else!

In the last few months? You did these in the last two weeks of term?

Just wanting to compare like with like here - presumably not all the children took part in all of these activities?

Sorry, I read 'few months... Two schools' as 'two months'. Well teach me to read MN while I'm doing other things! I need to get on an HE my children right now but if you're interested, I can let you know what's on offer to HE'rs round here this time.

Sorry, typing quickly with autocorrect on! Hope you can get the gist. Last word should be term, not time.

Jumping in...

singsong my kids are not home educated any more but pretty much everything on your list was organised by our local home ed group at very cheap or free for those who couldn't pay... And it was done in small groups, much smaller than a class size of thirty. Many organisations offer amazing deals to home ed groups and cater for them in the same way as they do schools and more. Don't be so smug as to think that stuff is only available to schools or the preserve of the rich.

ice attitudes to home ed really vary depending on the school,and individuals ime. Both primary schools I have had contact with were Ok with it infact the one that my younger kids ended up at was cool and openly impressed and enthusiastic about how we had home educated eldest two and frequently commented on how wide and broad their education had been etc. So lots of positive feedback. Eldest started school in yr 5, ds2 is yr2. They integrated fine, ds1 is about to start a levels, he just got all a*s and A's in his gcses.

Ds2 is going into yr9 and due to health needs is actually on a flexi school timetable, attending three says a week. He has hydrotherapy another day abd needs to rest. Anyway we do stuff at home depending on him. The school are supportive of this, it's been a battle to get support in place but we are getting there. That is partly to do with his asc though and a quick look at the sn's bards will show you that battling for the correct support when you have a child with special needs is standard across the educational system. Academically ds2 is flying, he is very bright. Socially he struggles due to his aspergers, in many ways he may benefit from home ed so he can mix with smaller groups and not be limited to his peer group at school which is the age range he finds most hard to interact with. We may yet end up returning to home ed with him, at the moment we are essentially hedging our bets with a flexible school approach!

Queen you seem to have misunderstood my last post.

No FE college can accept a home ed students without question. For a start there is a considerable amount of paperwork that needs to be completed before funding for that child can be assured.

There is also the mandatory GCSE at C in English and maths to be achieved prior to starting A levels.

There is also the individual colleges intake standards and the legal ramifications of those.

Yes, there are specialist colleges, but the are not in the FE sector. They are usually private sector.

At a school I taught in, we would have private candidates coming in to sit their GCSEs.

Home education doesn't necessarily equate to having no formal qualifications - it can, but generally speaking I haven't seen any evidence of this whatsoever.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of ignorance about it - that children who are home educated struggled to fit into traditional school, that they won't be socialised, that they are missing out.

I don't know how much has changed in the last few years, but DH and his 3 siblings were all home educated up to 16. 2 of them then went to a FE college, and 2 to the local sixth form to do A-levels. 3 out of the 4 of them then went to university (including 1 to Oxbridge), so it can be done.

good grief...so many comments.

Firstly my this specific child has been in school for nearly a year now.

Secondly I am now aware of a double standard in my thinking...I absolutely hate that faith schools are a thing. I hate that state sponsored religious discrimination and segregation occur....in fact it was a part of decision to home ed that we couldn't face applying to a process that involved bold as brass statements that the children of atheists would be considered lowest of the low and wouldn't be welcome at the school across the road from them.

just blood curdlingly disgusting.

but then home ed can be used to isolate on the basis of religion too...

sorry actually lolling at schools providing " A wide social circle of children from a large range of backgrounds"

not with faith schools (or even most non-faith)...all middle class white there...and all within age group. In fact the whole of the rest of life is more diverse than the average classroom....and that includes home ed groups....which are at least diverse in age if nothing else.

Did he do it before 1988? As that would be perfectly possible then as it was before the National Curriculum came in.

Maisie I think that is where the parents I have met at FE have got confused. They have sat as external candidates for GCSEs and yes, they can do the same for A levels. But they then also want to join the classes, understandably. And then want a less formal approach to be applied. One often asked question is "Can he start 5 or 6 and see how he goes?" which w cannot accommodate because of funding and issues with results.

It is a minefield at the best of times, it must be even harder if you ave not been in any part of the system at all.

Ice- I disagree. Any classroom will have more social diversity than a group of home educated children who, by virtue of their parent's choices and financial circumstances, have a huge amount in common.

Well yes, I do think if one is home educating them that needs to be committed to, not drift in and out of college on an as and when basis, but then that isn't 'real' HE, is it?

Sing - often children gravitate towards those of a similar background to them anyway, particularly when schools set or stream.

Singsong - you seem very blinkered about what school can provide. Ds3 is the most likely of my children to end up in home ed. He has language issues (it seems) - but he cannot follow large group conversations. He has coped in a very small primary (class of 12-15) but it remains to be seen how he will cope in a large secondary. His primary year group happens to have a lot of quite innocent childish children - which has suited him down to the ground. I suspect ds2's year group (much more streetwise) wouidn't have accepted him at all.

He gets on fine in out of school activities - which tend to be structured, short & doing things he enjoys. Very different from any secondary school I've been in.

His language issues already cause him anxiety - often around school. Usually around school thinking Aboit it, and that's with a lot of primary hand holding. If it goes to pot in secondary I'll take him out.

Ourblanche was that to me? No, DH went to college in 2005, and then to uni in 2008. His youngest sibling has just finished university this year.

There seems to be a misconception here that HE children only ever socialise with other HE children, this is definitely not my experience! My children have HE friends where we live, they have lots of HE friends in our nearest city, they have friends from brownies/rainbows/sports teams/language lessons that go to school, they also have friends that go to school that we know through toddler groups and playgroups and children of my friends and kids that live on our street. They don't live in some home ed bubble.

Also income and lifestyle vary hugely across the home ed communities that we are a part of.

Personally I worry about home ed because it involves a parent self-certifying their own competence. And humans are very bad at assessing themselves, and are particularly terrible at realising their own short-comings. I would never he for this reason - I would not be able to tell what I am not doing. At least in schools there is oversight and accountability. However I realise that where there is bullying and other serious problems in school, he is the only option.

Sorry, jbiscuits, it was to you.

I seem to have set myself up here as a 'naysayer'

I am not, really. Just often agog at the huge difference in expectations/knowledge some parents show when their DCs decide they want to join mainstream for something like A levels.

We had a dad who gave us a folder of how his son was best taught, the times of day he would get the most out of lessons, his down times, when he would be allowed to play his music etc. He didn't even ask if there was any problem/paperwork etc, didn't fill out the application form etc, he just brought his son to an Open Day, liked us, then brought him back on registration day and asked us 'how much?'.

I know, that is extreme (and he was) but I did say that I have no experience of the sensible parents who work this bit out beforehand. It really is possible. It just takes communication a couple of years beforehand, to ensure smooth progression.

I've not read all of this so I apologise for just making a point on its own, but my experience has also been that schools/teachers seem very very certain, generally, that it is wrong for the child to take them out of school, whatever the reasons - I have taken out two of my children, at different times, one of them two separate times - my second child's teacher cried when I told her. I have no idea why.

I have never been made aware that either of them has been considered 'at risk'. If they have then I'd rather someone told me.

I now take the view that school can be better than HE in certain circumstances and in others it is worse.

Often neither is a complete answer. but one or the other is the least worst compromise.

In our case I took out one child due to his being overtired/exhausted (reception) and he went back in Y1, the other I took out (Y1) because he kept asking to stay at home and I waited several months before agreeing. I had been ill and had a baby and he was fed up. He happily went back in Y2.
Last time was child 1 again, secondary age, and it was hard to teach him everything he would have learned in school, but he was desperately unhappy so I had no other option. He went to a different school 6 months later and is really very happy indeed there.

Sometimes you just have no real choice if you want your child to be Ok. I'd rather a happy child at home not learning particularly well, than a miserable one in school. That's my basic criteria.