AIBU to go to church if I'm not religious?

[Theydontknowweknowtheyknow]

There's a local church which has lots of meetings and groups for activities that interest me but they are all with an overriding religious theme.

I really like the idea of getting involved with the local church and think it would be good for DS too as he is a complete loner and could do with a shove to be a bit more sociable. I have great memories of my church as a kid as it was a big community.

Problem is I really don't believe in God anymore at least not in the God of the bible. Would it be a complete no-no to go along and pretend I do or are churches a bit more flexible these days?

Yabu to go along and pretend to believe in God.

That would be wrong and weird.

I wouldn't go at all, because I dislike the complexity of being involved implicitly in the believing side of things, and all the confusion that might bring but there are probably other places where you could join in with stuff that aren't churches.

I have a bit of a problem with the whole 'we just want bums on seats' mentality of a lot of evangelical Christians I know

It's like - why? What is the point of a load of people turning up who don't, and never will, believe in God? Is it so you can look like a massively popular religion, or what? (no offence)

GudrunBrangwen - When I first went to church I did not believe, but I came to faith about a year or two later.

And what makes you think all who join churches believe, or all who join and do not believe when they join will never believe?

I don;t think evangelical churches want bums on seats they want to share God's love. That's all.

Some may believe eventually; I hate the idea I'm being 'groomed' somehow - told I don't need to believe while all the time the intention is that I will, at some point, believe.

I dislike that very much.

Also, why do they need people to attend church in order to share God's love with them?

Can they not share it with everyone, whoever/wherever they are?

IMHO the church has the right to decide what it thinks about it's own stuff.

I couldn't care less what a private institution does. But the CofE is not private. They suck MY tax money and then discriminate against women and gays.

Get rid of the churches special status. Get rid of their exemptions re: discrimination. Then I will agree.

GudrunBrangwen

RE *Also, why do they need people to attend church in order to share God's love with them?

Can they not share it with everyone, whoever/wherever they are?*

Well yes, I am a big believer in sharing God's love anywhere. But my question would be why do people who do not believe feel the need to go to church? I totally get whey churches want to share with people. It feels like you are blaming churches because people who do not believe in God want to go to them!

redstrawberry10 what money is the C of E sucking from you?

YANBU. You have as much right to attend as anyone else. There's no need to pretend you have any particular belief.

what money is the C of E sucking from you?

tax breaks and funds from the government pay for huge amount of its infrastructure.

I see you didn't ask about the special privileges, so you acknowledge they have that.

I think many churches give back plenty to their local community. I am far more worried about the tax breaks big business gets.

I am not necessarily a fan of the church being established, it would not do me any great harm if the church were not. The church like all charities gets some benefits from charitable status, we may not agree with all charities or how they are run, but that is by the by.

What special privileges are you thinking of?

Anyway, I don't want a row. There is no point. The church does, and has done, plenty of good and plenty of harm. I recognise that fully. The church is a human organisation, like any it makes mistakes and gets things wrong. But I know for a fact churches do a lot of good in the lives of individuals all over the world and in my little patch of it.

No one is forced to believe what many Christians believe and it may surprise some to know that there are lots of things where Christians will differ in views and so the church is a very mixed bunch of people.

redstrawberry10 I wasn't trying to be bun fighty or row, I was just genuinely interested what people think the church 'gets' from non-church-goers.

Having been part of established C of E churches and also part of free, non-established churches there is not a massive difference but I perceive a difference in how the church relates to the general population.

Actually I think it is positive as members of the general population feel they are able to 'use' the local church for weddings, funerals etc but may not be part of that church for anything else.

What special privileges are you thinking of?

being established, mandatory worship in state schools, public money for essentially private schools which don't abide by local authority rules, exemptions from non-discriminatory legislation (the only organizations legally allowed to discriminate).

But I know for a fact churches do a lot of good in the lives of individuals all over the world and in my little patch of it.

I don't dispute that. that's plain as day. While it's not my cup of tea, it's not my place to stand in between them and their god. I just don't want me, my tax money or my non-discrimination laws to have any part in it.

"Yes, it's worth noting but I am just not sure that churches these days do campaign for much that people would be unhappy about"
Apart from Christianity, you mean?

*BertrandRussell Well yes, of course churches do want to spread the faith which they represent. But organisatins with charitable status are concerned to promote what they believe in. I am not sure I see a problem with that.

redstrawberry10

Re

being established I am not sure what benefits being establed actually has? I am not sure that state schools have mandatory worship anymore. It's always been something children could opt out of, even when I was a kid there was a Jewish child who never had to go to assembly. And the modern assemblies are not like the ones we had as kids (and I went to a regular state school. I don't know what yoiu mean about public money for essentially private schools, church schools are not private schools. There is no payment for them. Peronally, I would rather schools did not discriminate on who could go based on who goes to the local church. but if you think about it schools do discriminate on where people live, and in the old days (grammar schools) on who was more clever or more academic!

Re I don't dispute that. that's plain as day. While it's not my cup of tea, it's not my place to stand in between them and their god. I just don't want me, my tax money or my non-discrimination laws to have any part in it.

Thank you for your honesty. I do kind of feel it would be more honest if the church were not part of the establishment but another way of looking at it is that this is the system we have developed as a nation, over 100s of years. If people do/did not want it they would presumably campaign for things to change. Yet they do not do this on any large scale (to my knowledge). Ironically, some in the church woud prefer it as they would see it as better for the church.

The whole' gay' marriage debate may bring things to a head as the church is in a real dilema! Part of the church want to stick to a traditional interpretation of 'marriage' but of course the law says that we have equal marriage. So ironically in this case it is the clergy who suffer because they are not allowed to get married to same sex partners. (which I do not agee with, of course, I would like church leaders to have the same freedom as the rest of the population).

So although you may find it hard we have an established church quiet a few non-religious people seem to like to use the chruch for weddings, fiunerals etc and maybe feel happy to have an established faith, which is frankly pretty liberal generally.

Anyway, of course your views are totally valid and of course your concerns are very real but I can't see how the church could do anything about that other than disestablish and others in society may not want that.

But thanks for sharing your thoughts, it is always good to know what people think, it is easy in church to be in a bit of a bubble and forget how strongly people hold other views.

Sorry, OP did not mean to de-rail.

What a sad end to this thread. I'm ambivalent about religion of any kind but I have recently had to organise my father's funeral. Private burial with minister and church service. It brought huge comfort to many. Church communities can be great and some can be poisonous but the OP just wants to help her DS. and feel a sense of community

I don't blame churches if people who don't believe wish to attend for their own reasons. That would be ridiculous.

I dislike the way that some churches seek to encourage those who don't believe to attend, with anything from free coffee to the promise that 'it doesn't matter if you don't think there is a God, come along anyway' - when there is an ulterior motive behind it, ie a plan to convert or convince or persuade.

It's manipulative and disingenuous.

YANBU some Church organisations do a lot for local communities. Ours does baby & toddler groups, elderly lunch clubs etc.. People of different faiths & no faiths attend. We go to toddler groups, used to go to baby, met a lot of nice people. The church also mobilises people to respond e.g. To current refugee crisis. We are not religious but humanitarian. I don't believe all religious institutions are manipulative and dangerous.

What I find baffling is that every time there's a thread like this, someone comes on and explains carefully the issues with the involvement of the Church in education and the legislative process, and the same posters always come on all wide eyed and "oh, I don't know what you mean- Christianity doesn't have a privileged position - don't be so silly! Oh, yes, sometimes it is a teensy bit tricky about school admissions, but that doesn't really count. And the whole House of Lords is unelected- what do you mean 25 Bishops could influence science and social policy? And anyway, we do have to have checks and balances, don't we? And better a bishop than a businessman, surely? Oh yes, and Christianity in non faith schools? What harm can it do? What's wrong with letting children choose? And anyway you can always opt your child out. It's not compulsary. And yes of course you can come to church for the tea and cakes- no need to believe in anything at all. All you need to do is be counted as part of our congregation so it looks a if there is loads more support for Christianity than there really is........"

I am not sure what benefits being establed actually has? I am not sure that state schools have mandatory worship anymore. It's always been something children could opt out of, even when I was a kid there was a Jewish child who never had to go to assembly.

If being established carries no weight, why have it? The trouble is that it does.

I think you should read what you wrote again. That Jews have to 'opt out' is ridiculous.
Worship should extra curricular if you want it NOT to have a special place. I think this is a good example of the blinders Christians have on. They wonder what secularists complain about when little crumbs of the CofE are left everywhere that people can't even see it. Opting out is an example. That's the CofE getting special privileges.

Peronally, I would rather schools did not discriminate on who could go based on who goes to the local church. but if you think about it schools do discriminate on where people live,

"where you live" is not a protected characteristic here, but religion is. That means no employer, landlord, business, bakery etc can discriminate on the basis of religion, the sole exception being religious institutions. it's an absolutely wonderful british law, that the CofE and other religious institutions don't need to follow.

So although you may find it hard we have an established church quiet a few non-religious people seem to like to use the chruch for weddings, fiunerals etc and maybe feel happy to have an established faith, which is frankly pretty liberal generally.

this is an incredibly weak argument for an established church. In my native america, people get married in churches all the time. You don't need an established church for that.

And it's not liberal. Forcing other people to engage with your religion through the law and political institutions is the opposite of liberal.

Oh, yes, sometimes it is a teensy bit tricky about school admissions, but that doesn't really count. And the whole House of Lords is unelected- what do you mean 25 Bishops could influence science and social policy? And anyway, we do have to have checks and balances, don't we?

blinders. the privileged are blind to their privilege.

I don't believe all religious institutions are manipulative and dangerous.

No, neither do I.

I agree with much of what Red says.

I also would never want to get married in a religious ceremony, have not had my children baptised 'because everyone does' - I didn't feel able to recite the required doctrine, because I don't know if I have any faith or if I do what it comprises, so I did not do this.

I dislike the fact that thousands of people use churches only for their own wedding or baptism ceremonies, saying words they don't believe. I think it's hugely hypocritical.

I was brought up in the Catholic religion which I have long since abandoned. I have a lot of experience of the church. I was uncomfortable with it from a very early age.

God, to me, is a separate thing. The church is totally man made and as such I treat it very much at face value and don't accord it any special respect.

What a sad end to this thread.

I don't want this to be the end of the thread and I am sorry if by engaging I am making that happen so please accept my apologies OP.

redstrawberry10 I don't think it is helpful to for me to discuss this on here any more. I am happy to speak privately by direct message if you would like to. My guess is you do not as just as I might trot out the same, in your eyes weak arguments then I think you will have your stables. The reality is that this is the situation in our country and if you do not like it then you can campaign to change it. I am not too fussed either way but I do think the church by and large does a lot of good in society and I am very happy to be a member of it, delighted when others join it, for whatever good reasons regardless of what they believe. I may well agree with much of what you say but for different reasons than you, I see the privilege going both ways, I see 'my' established church as a benefit to my community and I think many English people seem to feel a sort of vague inclusion, which is fine by me.

Anyway, may the thread thrive without my whitterings. Bless you all.

This thread did get derailed a bit. It started with pointing out that one may not want to be counted as a member for the various political reasons stated, and then got to a discussion about the role of the church in our society.

I understand the need for community, but it surprises me the church is the only way to achieve this (this may be because I live in London. you can find whatever community your want here). I am an immigrant so I have no positive associations with the CofE (or any religion).

@italian what jars secularists is the refusal to acknowledge that lack of equality and the rampant discrimination. The privilege does not "go both ways". You have it, and I don't, it's that simple. For example, wherever you live, you will have about 40% more school choice than I will, solely based on your religion. There is a movement to change this country but, as with all forms of privilege, those who benefit are resisting or simply not acknowledging the problem.

redstrawberry10 I'm sorry for any part I have played in derailing the thread. If you wish to continue debating this subject with me, please start a new thread and pm me to join it and I will. Thank you.

Although I'm not religious, I've been a few times for things other than weddings or funerals. I went to a Holy Communion (of course I stood there confused about the whole thing!) and a memorial thing when my aunt died, they invited anyone who had recently had someone pass away. I think they accept anyone these days, they just want to spread the word to anyone that will listen.

My mum wanted to get married in a church but also isn't religious. So she went to church before she got married and continued going afterwards because she didn't want to take the church for granted. Though she doesn't go now, she thought it was wrong to get married in a place of worship when she'd never been.
There's loads of churches around me that do activities but I'd never go because the whole religion thing I find a bit daunting, but I find churches comforting in funeral settings because it's overwhelming at them times in life.