Feel stuck in the middle of friends- WWYD

[jacks11]

There are 4 of us in a close circle of friends (since uni), although we aren't all living that close to each other anymore we do talk reasonably often and try to see each other every few months or so when possible. Lets call the other friends A, B and C.

Friend A has been trying to conceive for a while and is now being assessed for fertility treatment. She has found the whole thing very tough and is desperate to be a mum. We all know this.

I have a DD and Friend B has 2 DCs (1.5 and 4). Friend C has recently announced she is pregnant, having told friend A separately before she told the rest of us. This was 8 weeks ago.

The problem is friend A has been extremely unkind to friend C. She was furious that C hadn't told her she was TTC, but when she explained that it was an unplanned pregnancy this seemed to make things worse. C said A had told her unplanned pregnancies were "irresponsible", for example. She doesn't seem to be able to be happy for C, nor does she want B or I to be happy for her.

She has asked friend B and I not to invite friend C to a get together we were arranging as "it's just too hard to see her". B and I said that we weren't happy to exlude C from our plans, but would understand if A didn't want to come at the moment. Both B and I have said we are happy to meet up with A individually, or to talk on the phone etc but are just not happy to leave C out of our usual plans.

Friend A has told us that she expected more support and feels "betrayed" by us all. Her husband spoke to me to say she has been inconsolable and he was surprised we hadn't been understanding. I've tried just listening, or trying to give her space and waiting for her to contact me but then was accused of sidelining her.

At the same time, C is also really upset by the situation.

I get that A is feeling really awful right now- it must feel like everyone else has what she desperately wants and without any difficulties. It is unfair and I do feel for her, but I also feel she is being unkind- this is a time that C should be able to be happy about without being made to feel guilty. I also feel that I should be able to be happy for my friend without being made to feel like I'm doing something to deliberately upset A. I don't want to leave C out of things, although understand why A might want to be absent herself from things for a while and would be happy to arrange things with A separately (i.e. not excluding C from things).

I don't really know what to say to friend A- I'd like to be supportive but also don't want to be guilted into being unfair to friend C. I feel she is being unreasonable (but understand why) and don't know how to tackle it without making things worse. wwyd?

I think you're doing the right thing, Jacks but do be kind to friend A as much as you can under the circs; she doesn't need any stiff talking to, she's in a world of pain herself and as others have said, is reacting irrationally because of it.

So sad that she can't be happy for friend C but can totally see why - not only is she now the last person in the group to have no children, but friend C wasn't even trying, just had a happy accident - A must have been beside herself with frustration and envy!

Just carry on inviting both of them to everything planned as a group, and make sure that they both know the other is there, and then A can make her own choices (as can C of course!).

But I too think that the chances of your group surviving this is slim to none; unless A gets lucky very soon.

I don't know if it's just the personality of some people or an utter unreasonableness which occurs in infertility due to the distress of it but there are some women (threads occur regularly on MN) who seem to think that the pain of infertility should influence others joy or experience.

It is deeply, deeply painful to be TTC and it not happening or going through infertility treatment. Sensitivity from other people is needed and polite but it doesn't mean that life doesn't go on for other people and doesn't mean other people cannot have successful pregnancies (planned or unplanned) and be happy about it because that is normal!.

I've seen many threads on MN with people struggling with infertility and stating that FB posts announcing pregnancy or women complaining of a difficult pregnancy are unreasonable and cruel because they would love to be pregnant and don't want to be confronted with other people's pregnancy or hear anyone complain about theirs.

There was a thread on here a while ago with someone struggling with infertility giving 'advice' of what a pregnant friend should do which was to not tell anyone on social media and arrange to see the struggling TTC friend face to face and acknowledge how upsetting it would be for them and how they would 'hold their hand through this difficult time' or however it was phrased.

There were many posts of support but many from those saying a face to face announcement with a patronising theme would be the worst thing ever. And they'd prefer to hear by text or on social media so they can compose themselves first.

It is in my opinion, something peculiarly related to the pain of infertility whereas we don't feel upset or offended or upset if someone talks about a brilliant weekend with their Mum when you've lost yours. Or feel affronted if someone complains about their Mum as we think you should be grateful because they have one and you've lost yours.

bigbumtheory makes a great suggestion of an email to send your friend A. Beautifully put. If i could make one slight edit, it would be to substitute 'I know you are grieving that you can't have children' for something like 'I know you are upset and anxious that you haven't got your children yet'

I think it makes a difference because the word 'yet' means it's still possible and that you - OP - think it might/will happen for friend A one day. Not being written off as 'the infertile one' really matters I think.

[some experience of being friend A, but I don't think I cut anyone off or was mean, just very upset at times....and friend C in my case was one of my nearest and dearest and I was truly pleased for her]

To add to the above, I guess it depends on how old you all are to an extent....from the ages of the DC I had assumed early 30s but I can see that I might be very wrong [sorry if so]

But I'd just like to add to this thread that the pain of infertility or TTC is very specific and not like anything else, and people experience it differently. So I don't blame A for an extreme reaction, it's just a shame in this case that C is the target.

And wishing A all the best for a pg in the near future, and well as wishing C a happy pregnancy.

I think Friend A is losing sight of the fact that she has a partner and has the chance to try to conceive, even though it's not happening now.

I'm 43 and have never been in a situation where TTC would have been a good idea. Just in terms of relationship and finances, there was no way it was going to happen. A good friend of mine in her late 30s has just had her first child. I'm happy for her. I listened to her, even when she complained about the shit bits of pregnancy. We exchanged tips on how to get your socks on when you can't reach your feet - her because she kept puking if she bent over, me because I'd fallen off a horse and hurt my back. And yes, there were times when it hurt. I didn't go to the baby shower and sometimes I did just have to change the conversation onto non-baby topics. In the end though she's my friend, and she has the child she was desperate for.

As hurt as A is, she needs to realise that there are good things in her life and she needs to stop taking it out on C. Keep inviting her to things, keep including her, talk about non-baby stuff with her but don't let her bully anyone if you can help it.

Yes Icouldbeso!! I was thinking as I read this that if friend A was behaving the same way due to being the last to be single in a group of friends she would likely not be getting the same sympathy, even though that can also be deeply upsetting. Any one have any theories as to why this is? I feel maybe I am missing something important.

Anyway OP, I do not think you are being hard on A. I think you are being kind and considerate (rightly). I think you are absolutely right to try and support her and tell her how much you care about her. I also think that, as far as possible, you should support her to be able to cope with spending time with C etc - as it is going to be hard on the whole friendship group, including her, if she can't. Obviously ultimately if she can't that's her call, but it would be sad.

I have been C. I would have counted A as one of my very closest friends until she was bitingly unpleasant when I had PND after DC1. I didn’t know at the time that she was ttc, so it was as mystifying as it was hurtful. Several years (and several miscarriages) later, when I became pregnant with DC2, I had a phonecall from B telling me how awful A felt about my news and giving me a long list of demands she was basically conveying from A, relating to what I could and couldn’t say or do in front of her, and what social events I may or may not attend in order to make things easier for her. I was also uninvited by another mutual friend, D, from something that had been in all our diaries for months, because it was ‘going to be so upsetting for her’ to see me. I wish I had been robust enough to confront B and D with how unreasonable it all was, but I found I just didn’t have it in me to argue my way back into a friendship group that had seemingly closed ranks – A was a strong personality and B and D, with retrospect, behaved like complete saps. I never saw A again and would find it hard to be civil to her if I did. Neither did I see B or D again, although B phoned me some years later to demand that I send A a card to congratulate her on the DC she eventually had with the help of IVF. (And I did, which I guess makes me a sap too.)

OP, I want to say what a good friend I think you are being to C. I feel for A as I know from the many miscarriages I had that a kind of temporary insanity can take you over, but what she is proposing is bullying and it’s to your credit that you want no part of it.

MrsLupo - I don't think you sending your A a card makes you a sap at all - I think it makes you a decent human being. The rest of your "friends" though - dear me!

2 things

1. I lost respect for A when she got her DH involved to tell you she was inconsolable. I hate it when friend's partners wade into friend's arguments. Friends should sort it out between themselves.

2. it's not the being upset that's an issue, it's the expecting everyone else to not be pleased for C when it's A who should be absenting herself till she feels able to deal with it.

My friend who had difficulty conceiving was pleased for me when I announced (I hadn't told anyone we were trying wtf about C supposedly having to tell A!) but I didn't bang on about how rough I felt because she would have given anything to be in my position (she then conceived twins and had no sickness whatsoever!)

A has the issue not C so A should be thinking about how her behaviour impacts on C and the friendship group, not blaming C for having something A wants. If she's not careful her infertility attitude could drive a wedge through a group of people whose support she's likely to need whichever way the treatment goes.

Tell friend A to grow the hell up?

Failing that, what you've already said is good. That you feel bad for her situation but that doesn't mean you are going to exclude friend C who has done nothing wrong. Friend A sounds very controlling and that always has to be nipped in the bud or dealt with firmly if it's already in full bloom, regardless of fertility status.

"Tell friend A to grow the fuck up."
Not as easy as that. It's nothing to do with immaturity. Friend A is hurting, and yes jealousy, but then she is bound to be. It's only a natural reaction when someone has what you want. However I highly doubt she enjoys feeling like this

I've been A. I understand why she's lashing out.

One of my closest friends fell pregnant whilst on the pill and in a casual relationship. She knew we were having problems and had suffered losses. She wrote me a very thoughtful and sensitive email to let me know, and I'll love her forever for thinking of me that way, but I still felt like I'd been kicked in the gut and I cried for two days straight at how unfair it all was.

When is composed myself, I explained that I was happy for her (and I really, truly was), but that I was sad for me, and that if I withdrew from her for a while, it was because I was dealing with my own shit. Her baby was born a few short weeks after what would have been a due date for me, so was enormously difficult.

We kept in touch, but I couldn't see her for the entirety of her pregnancy, and she was so bloody kind and accepting of my feelings.

It all changed when her little boy was born, and things are back to normal now. I'm also 27 weeks pregnant after IVF, and again she's been amazing.

I'm actually really lucky to have her as a friend. Think I might go and tell her that right now....

You are handling it very well. I am glad you are not allowing a to dictate. She is jealous. That is something she will have to deal with. Life isn't fair, sometimes things don't work out. I have been both a and c. I knew I was jealous as hell, but I didn't dictate to others. When I was c, a friend and I were pregnant together. She had an abortion and acted all immature through part of my pregnancy. Another friend told her how ridiculous she was being and she snapped out of it.

Friend A is hurting, and yes jealousy, but then she is bound to be. It's only a natural reaction when someone has what you want

Who gives a flying fuck about "friend" A hurting. What about the poor expectant one - why should she be made to feel remotely guilty in anyway? Friend C is not responsible for A's infertility.

Jealousy IS immaturity. Friend A is an out and out twat - their demeanor proves they arent worthy of any sympathy.

Goodness me, Suck aren't you delightful.
I hope to God you never experience infertility.
Yes it's not friend C's fault. No one has said it is. But I think referring to a women in so much emotional pain as a a twat. Is beyond a low blow.
Oh and I think Friend A is the poor one !

I have been in friend A's position and while it's hard, and yes I felt jealous, I would never expect friends to not feel happy for others, and exclude them. I might have given my apologies for things I knew pregnant friends were going to and said I couldn't handle it at the moment, but never told people who they could be friends with.

I think you are being fair continuing your plans with C and being happy for her, while offering to see A seperately and support her.

I have also been C and hope I was understanding of friends in similar positions, but if my friends had cut me off because of a friend 'A' I would have been very hurt.

So while I understand friend A it is not fair to hurt friend C who hasn't done anything wrong. Just because A is going through shit doesn't give her the right to hurt someone else.

I know it's hard for you, but it sounds to me like you are being reasonable :)

The rest of your "friends" though - dear me!

Thank you, Thumb. Without wishing to hijack the thread, I should add that that experience gave me the impetus to examine my friendship history and habits, and I realised that for most of my life I’d been choosing my friends badly as a legacy of some very fucked up family relationships. My friend A was a narcissistic queen bee, just like my mother had been, and B and D were falling into line in the way people often tend to do around such people. Once I woke up to that, I could see that actually A had form for sulking, manipulating and generally organising things to her own satisfaction. She also had a trail of broken friendships in her past, though until I fell victim to her myself I had only seen her side of things.

Much as we all feel for the OP’s friend A, I wonder if she has form too, which may help clarify how to handle her?

How tootsiepops describes it is how it should be in this situation. BC and you are using the script but A isn't.

All you can really do is express your sympathy for A's situation but point out it's not fair to punish C for something that is not her fault. Of course it's very difficult to see friends get exactly what you really want so much and you were quite right to say you'd understand if she wasn't up for coming and offering to meet another time 1 to 1. But if you can't face a social engagement you don't demand someone else doesn't go to make your life easier, you don't go yourself. Excluding C will not change A's situation one iota.

That's a very interesting point, MrsLupo - glad you realised you had this pattern going on and I assume you now have nice, real friends? Definitely worth considering this point, jacks.

Thanks, Thumb, yes, much nicer friends, and also a better relationship with family - well, worse, actually, but better for me.

I think infertility is probably the ultimate challenge for controlling types (apart from life-threatening illness/injury), as no matter how much emotion, thought or money you throw at it, there are obviously limits to the control you can assert. Hence the attempt to control everything and everyone else around them instead.

Anyway, hope some of this is helpful, OP.

Thanks everyone.

B & I had a chat with A and explained that we all understand that she is upset and struggling with things, and that she might be absenting herself from group get-togethers etc because she will find them too painful. However, C is happy and we are happy for her too, and we will not be excluding her from anything, although are happy to arrange things separately with A individually and will try to support her as best we can.

A was very upset and said she felt she was being punished for being hurt.

I did try to explain we are trying to support both her and C equally, and that meant taking both their feelings into account equally. A is adamant that we should all, especially C, be more thoughtful about her need to avoid pregnant women/babies (although she seems to be ok with my DD and B's DCs being around).

A said she needs our support more than C, but we seem so happy for C we can't see how hard things are for her. She feels even hearing about C and her pregnancy will be too much, so she would prefer it if we didn't even talk about her. I had no intention of rubbing her nose in it, and to my knowledge nor has B or C- so this all seems so OTT. A said she can't bear the thought of us all meeting up without her (C being pregnant and B & I with our DCs) or being at events and all being happy, whilst she isn't there. We said she is welcome, if she wants to come, and we also understand if she doesn't or leaves early or whatever- and we will still see her without C- but we simply can't freeze C out entirely because it's easier for her. A said C should be more considerate and bow out of things to allow her to attend.

I feel so sad for her, and she is obviously unhappy but I am struggling to with her demands- I understand she is unhappy and needs support, but surely she can see that C has not ceased to exist / ceased to be our friend because she is pregnant? She cannot dictate what B & I feel about anything, although seems to be making a determined attempt to make us feel guilty for being happy for C, and is demanding free rein to dictate where C can go/ B&I meeting her and so on.

I'm not sure what else to do. I am beginning to think I can't be as supportive as she wants. I am not willing to cut C off. Sadly, A has gone down in my estimation- and I feel this level of selfishness does seem to go beyond what can reasonably be tolerated. I don't know what to do for the best, but not sure our friendship will survive if this goes on until (if?) A has her own child.

A has gone down in my estimation- and I feel this level of selfishness does seem to go beyond what can reasonably be tolerated

As I said in my opening remarks, "friend" A is a cunt. And a self centred one at that.

Glad you realise that now. There's nothing you can do - fuck her. Let the stupid moan like a harlot. When she's sat without friends one day, then she'll realise what a fucking moron she's been.

I'm not sure that this could be seen as a normal situation where normal rules about selfishness apply. Her unreasonableness in coming from a very difficult place.
I have a friend who has spent the last 4 years going through IVF and the strain on her and her partner has been almost intolerable. I have another friend who went through IVF and had one baby and would never go through it again for fear of the strain destroying her family. That kind of pressure can make people behave in funny ways.
I think you're handling it really well and should continue as you are. You are being sensitive to A, whether she can see that or not, and to do things differently to how you are would be awful to C.

After taking the time to explain how you and B feel, she still maintains her vile nature? I would be dropping her tbh. She has shown you how extremely selfish and ugly she can be, who needs a friend like that? Don't pander to her. She needs help, not people tip toeing around her demands. Horrible woman.

I've been C with an A friend. My first pregnancy she was over the top and ringing the hospital every 5 minutes when I was in labour to see how I was getting on (it didn't help I was in for a few days!) Fast forward 12 months and she could barely speak to me and eventually admitted that she couldn't cope with the fact I had a baby when she so desperately wanted one. I tried to keep the friendship going but ended up letting it go the further she pushed me away.

It was a couple of years later when I fell pregnant with dc2 and bumped in to A again. She invited myself and another friend over for tea and asked our dc over too. I was happy to try and re-build bridges but swore if the same happened again that would be the end of our friendship as I was really hurt last time. This time she made a real effort with dc1 who came to adore her and A took it well the I was expecting again although I made an effort to keep any baby talk to a minimum she assured me she was happy for me and was looking forward to meeting the new baby. We met up regularly and had become close again. Cue the day dc2 arrived, I text her with the news, name etc. Nothing. I tried again, still nothing. I never heard from her again. My other friend bumped in to her months later when she asked why she didn't get in touch, she branded me selfish for not considering her feelings! To be honest I was furious, she knew I was pregnant - did she expect me to give it up at birth to spare her feelings?? I know she desperately wants a baby and I genuinely feel sorry that it hasn't happened for her yet but she made me feel like I should've apologised for giving birth. I hope one day it does happen for her, but she's lost me as a friend for good.