to be horrified at the behaviour in bohunt school

[SEsofty]

Just watched the programme about Chinese teachers in uk. Whilst I appreciate that it is reality tv and thus exaggeration for effect I was still horrified with the apparent number of children who were talking in class.

I'm not that accident and went to a very normal school but talking whilst teacher did simply didn't happen. I don't agree with the Chinese methods but talking whilst someone is trying to teach you is simply rude.

'Why the assumption that the disruption comes from the 'bottom' table? It very rarely does because those at the 'bottom' ( as you like to call it) generally have the extra help with the TA and so are concentrated.
Disruption is likely to come from the 'top' who are bored stiff and have been ready to move in for 2 days. Or do you have the mindset that says bright children can't be disruptive?'

How about just running your school in such a way that the first disruption of a class would be the last? The assumption that there will always be disruption is shocking.

Can the country afford a system that leaves one third of school leavers little improved over where they were when they were aged 8 or 9 in terms of attainment?

People also seem to see a huge stigma of being in anything that is not the top group. I don't see any stigma. I think that children need to be taught in a group with other children of the same level at a pace they can understand. There is the peculiar view that those at the 'bottom' are left to rot with low expectations and no chance of progressing!

My DS was in the lower maths set for his entire junior school career. It was best for his personality. He was in the third group starting secondary. He was a slow developer but he eventually gained his confidence aged 13 and that is when he progressed to the top set and needed his A at Maths A'level to get into his RG university. There was no stigma in being in lower groups- he got the appropriate teaching at the time.

I don't know how you believe there is no stigma (or status) attached to groups that are called 'top', 'middle', 'lower' and 'lowest', with the 'lower' and 'lowest' being identified with 'slow' developers.

So many children do the opposite of gaining confidence at 13, thanks to spending their formative years understanding exactly what those words imply.

Thanks to the British system where you can drop maths after GCSE if you feel you don't have the talent and the system where everyone is not expected to continue at maths is based on a notion that there are different types of brains, 'maths' and 'other' those who do not shine from an early age are in fact left to rot, unless they are from relatively wealthy homes and get the necessary push or access to well run schools that such homes can give. In systems where all students are expected to keep doing a broad range of subjects to age 18, including a core of English and maths with perhaps a science and mfl, there is less of a tendency to fret about the 'top' students who are assumed to be having their time wasted by those who are not going to keep up maths anyway.

You brought up disruption, mathanxiety, not me. I was answering your question as if you did have disruption- there is no need for it.
I really can't see the stigma. I went to a secondary modern school - there should be real stigma for you there! I am very much against selection but that is because it is set at a young age and you can't move up or down.

Taking your argument mathanxiety we should have been left to rot and known our place. Luckily we were not. Luckily we were streamed. I can't imagine the frustration of having to be in a maths class where some were 11yrs and hadn't mastered the basics.

Tell me - what would you do in one if the many small rural primary schools where you have 2 years in the same classroom? Still teach them all together with no differentiation.
Would you care to tell me the ability of my maths groups - willow, oak, chestnut and sycamore? ( they are not listed in order of ability). The children are not told.

Where is this stigma? My son in the much lower maths group had friends in the top maths group. It isn't t streaming- it is setting so they get different pupils in different lessons. He is married to a woman who was in the top maths group. He isn't stupid - merely not very academic.

We seem to gloss over the fact that Shanghai schools have selection and wealthy, 'pushy' parents are preparing their children from birth to get places!

We are also glossing over the fact that this means there is no real 'mixed' teaching because they are cherry picked in the first place.

The main thing that we are glossing over is that the Chinese teachers have a very light teaching load. Just think what UK Maths teachers could do if they had 60% of their time for personal research, marking, preparation and collaboration with other maths teachers in the school.

Just think what the UK primary teacher could do if they were specialist maths teachers- didn't have a maths lesson straight after teaching PE and were not going immediately on to literacy and didn't need lunchtime to sort out science equipment for the afternoon lesson. And they had more than 10% of the week for planning and preparation.

Just think how the country could afford it- and understand it is only ever going to be a dream!

No replies to any of my questions from Vanilla

A question for Mathanxiety - do you want sports day without winners- or is that different?

When I was at school, there was never disruption like that at Bohunt because pupils would v e been caned for disrespecting a teacher like that.
Now I am generally very against corporal punishments , but I am now Wonderimg whether the end justifies the means.do a few sore bums outweigh destroying the life chances of scores of pupil s

I agree that it was used for centuries. Where is this evidence that it worked? It didn't for my mother in 1920/30s and it didn't for my grandfather born 1884. I haven't got time to list all the people that I know personally or how it failed them.
We seem to have sweeping statements with no evidence at all.

Not really MadamArcati- the same children got caned. If it worked they would only have been caned once!

What do we do with pupils with dyscalculia? Deny it exists and put them in mixed ability saying ' the mastery approach works for all'?

bertrand I think the reality is that most sporty types get all their sport provided at school including competitive matches, music lessons at school for most (although one of mine does dancing and music outside, mostly but not exclusively on a Saturday). School does CCF and DofE within the activities sessions and community service for 6th formers. When you have such a long day at school you have to cut your cloth accordingly so maybe the dog walking for example might have to go. But it is not accurate to say that these kids have no life outside of school

What about maths anxiety here
It will be far worse in a mixed ability class where you are too scared to mention that you haven't a clue what is going on when everyone else appears to know. Much better to have a small, nurturing class, going at your pace where you can ask questions.
I can identify with it. Although I was good at maths at school I still go into a blind panic if anyone starts asking me questions about the flow of water into and out of baths! That comes from mental arithmetic from primary school.

But why spend so much of the day inside the same 4 walls, with the same people homebythesea? What happens to the introverted person like me who needs time alone and silence? Walking the dog is very therapeutic after a day surrounded by people.

"bertrand I think the reality is that most sporty types get all their sport provided at school including competitive matches"

So that means that private school children can't play for their local team, go to Scouts, mix with kids who don't go to their school- or own a dog!

My worst year ever in maths was a very strict disciplinarian, elderly teacher. We all sat in silence (didn't dare do anything else!) in rows and he was a good teacher- very logical and very clear to follow.
However he was very unapproachable. His method was the 'rapid intervention' that Vanilla is keen on,but failed to answer my question on. I was having a very off day, not feeling well, and there was nothing ' rapid' about it. It took him 20 minutes to get through my fog of incomprehension. I resolved never to ask him another question. I didn't. My maths went downhill. Luckily it picked up with change of teacher.

The sporty ones are not encouraged to play for outside teams in case of injury (esp rugby, there are rules about how many games kids can play because of possibility of head injury). I confess to being the parent of very not sporty kids so maybe talking out of my hat but do people really play for 2 teams at a time Ie school and outside school? I wonder if it is actually that different. I agree that there is not much mixing with people outside school, and that is definitely a disadvantage.

Mine played for school and for local teams from 6yrs to 17 yrs.
They did swimming.
Lots do gymnastics or dance.
There is life beyond the school walls!

My Beaver group had Scouts come to help- part of the scout programme. We started at 4.30pm.

People seem to be determined to discredit the Chinese "win" -trying to find reasons for it that aren't to do with the teaching method.

If the Bohunt children had "won", I wonder if the same posters would be saying things like the pupils from the Chinese school were tired from the long school day and the long day had been detrimental to their chances.

What if the school day finished at 5 instead of 3, but there was no homework (as this had been done in school, supported by the teachers). That would leave time for clubs and dog walking (and hanging out with mates).

What if the classes were still set by ability, but still taught chalk and talk?

Wouldn't teachers have more time if they didn't have to do all that prep making lessons exciting and entertaining for the children. Without all the need for teachertainment (love it pp!) teachers would have more time to teach and more time teach.

And, most importantly, what if there was a ZERO approach to low level disruption. That children weren't allowed to talk in lessons and back chat the teacher all the time. Even if it means them missing out on an education- yes, not ideal for any child to miss out on their education. But it is fairer to have the disruptive, not interested children missing out than the interested children loosing out becuase the disinterested are being pandered to all the time as happens at the moment. I did feel angry from the bottom of my soul that the kettle boy was rewarded by the Chinese teacher at the end by being given a present (Chinese Tea) - it would appear that even in the Chinese school bad behaviour pays.

Listening to BBC breakfast now on our pupils being among the most unhappiest in Europe.
No spare time. No time to play or just 'be'. ( lots of other things too).

Only made worse IMO by long school hours and an insistence on mixed class teaching and an insistence that everyone is the same and they just need the 'right' teaching method.

Yep- my ds plays two sports for school and club- very common in the State school world! I have wondered why there's only one private school boy in his squad- I didn't realise it was because they weren't allowed to join

I do find the idea of private school meaning you might not be able to have your own dog incredibly sad!

Finishing at 5 pm seems to imagine you are free at 5 pm- not that you have to walk to the bus stop, wait 15 mins for the bus- travel for an hour and then need to eat. Takes you to about 7 pm where too shattered to do anything!
Mine had to be at the bus stop at 7:30am - and they went to their catchment area school.

My nephew has a job walking his neighbours dog after school. She is too ill to do it at the moment. It has a knock on effect for other people.

I can actually see how chalk and talk might work with Maths- although I still can't see how it would work in mixed ability classes. I hav to say ds's eyes lit up when he saw the Chinese school maths lesson. And formal grammar, and languages. But what about other subjects?

I totally agree with mathanxiety you cannot escape the fact that there is stigma attached to group setting in primary schools and children are well aware of it.
I don't agree with the idea that these groups are fluid either as those at the top will always be too many steps ahead for others to catch up. This is particularly notable in year 6 approaching SATS when a huge amount of extra teacher time is devoted to getting the top set to level 6. Meanwhile the rest of the class are left with TAs to get on with it.

Just checking- all of you anti setting people- you are all opposed to any sort of selective education, aren't you?