to be horrified at the behaviour in bohunt school

[SEsofty]

Just watched the programme about Chinese teachers in uk. Whilst I appreciate that it is reality tv and thus exaggeration for effect I was still horrified with the apparent number of children who were talking in class.

I'm not that accident and went to a very normal school but talking whilst teacher did simply didn't happen. I don't agree with the Chinese methods but talking whilst someone is trying to teach you is simply rude.

Finnish schools teach the whole class at one level up to the end of elementary school, but from secondary onwards there is some setting, esp. in maths.

I think that delaying streaming as long as possible is a good idea (I get frustrated by the British obsession with putting children on different "ability" tables at an extremely young age), but no system is 100% egalitarian all the way through.

www.cps.org.uk/files/reports/original/150410115444-RealFinnishLessonsFULLDRAFTCOVER.pdf

I really recommend this piece, "Real Finnish Lessons" to anyone who is interested in the Finnish phenomenon. Unlike a lot of rather starry-eyed media discussion of Finland, this one takes a hard-headed view. It is quite an easy read, though.

Part of the problem in the media discussion of Finland is that people have not understood the "time lag" nature of education. I.e, the Finnish education system improved dramatically through the 1970s-2000, and some students did well in PISA in 2000.... and then a bunch of journalists are getting off planes in Helsinki in 2001 and 2006 or 2015 or whatever, and assuming that the education system they are seeing now must hold the key to why these improvements took place.

In fact, of course, if you want to know why the Finnish system improved dramatically through the 1970s-2000, you have to look at the reforms taking place in the 1960s to 1990s. If you want to know why some students did well in PISA in 2000, you have to look at what the education system was like in the 90s. And given that the scores have gone down quite a bit since then, it would also be a good idea to look at what has changed in the system since the 1990s, because whatever the changes have been, they have apparently not been great for the students' performance.

That's very interesting TNS- and very depressing. Do you happen to know if there's any research not from a right wing think tank that might present an alternative viewpoint?

I read all the research about mixed ability teaching in maths on my PGCE and decided it was the way forward (I wrote an essay on it). Then I actually started teaching. We taught mixed ability in Y7, and setted the rest. What actually happened in the mixed ability classroom was that I taught to the middle-top end, the very top end got bored, the bottom end didn't get enough support and I ended up with a class that was set by ability anyway as I juggled different resources for the different groups. And if you think it's demoralising being in a bottom set, try being in the same class as kids getting 100% on a test and proclaiming it easy when you got 5% despite your best efforts.

We now set Y7 as soon as possible. None of the teachers in the department argued in favour of mixed ability.

So the theory versus the practice can be quite different.

I don't know where you get the idea that they don't stream, set or group for Maths in the majority of the countries.
maths education in Europe here
What is seems to mean is that most countries, including UK, do not have to comply with a particular system and they are free to choose.

I can see that mixed ability works well for the middle section- which is the largest section. Any teacher has to teach to them.The ones that miss out are the top because you have contain them to some point and you can't let them move on as quickly as you could if they were your only group. I should think it is very frustrating for them to go at a much slower pace than necessary. The bottom group will most definitely struggle because you really can't wait until they all get something - more than three-quarters of the class would be bored and restless. You would have to have heavy use of a TA or use teacher time to go over- leaving the rest to get on and not being available to interact with them.
My fastest, most successful, maths teaching ever was 2 terms that I had teaching the 17 most able mathematicians in a year 5. They benefitted greatly. I would say we covered at least double what we would have done with mixed ability.
If you make sure the class size for mixed ability is 18 ,or less ,it is workable -but state education, in most countries, can not afford this.

I should ignore the comment 'why do we need trigonometry?' it is what teenagers say- I can't believe that anyone was in schools themselves without someone once saying 'why do we need...........?

Mahitabel, You advocate forcefully the advantages of the system, why did you escape those advantages for you your own DS?

Mehitabel6 : Sun 16-Aug-15 07:51:19
Summer born children are behind to start with. You can't help it. I met a 4 yr old last week. She has done a whole year in reception and she goes into year one in a few weeks. She will still be 4 yrs old until the last week of this month. As she goes into year 1 the first of the class will be turning 6 yrs
2 of my sons didn't even start school until they were 5 yrs.^

Why didn’t you send both your DS to school when they turned 4? They would be enjoying differentiated teaching in the lower set…

Are you advising the government to not include summer born children in Reception classes until they turn 5? Are you recommending this to other parents?

Vanillachocolate- I am finding it increasingly difficult to understand what you are getting at...

Cross posted noblegiraffe .
I can't teach mixed ability maths and give every child the best.
You have to go for the middle, and depending on the make up up of the class it can often be top middle.
If you are in that top middle band as a pupil I can quite see that you thought it wonderful. You were being taught to your 'set' . Not wonderful if it was not your 'set'. I should think utterly demoralising if you don't understand any of it.
Since Vanilla has ignored all my questions as to her experience teaching mixed ability maths I can only assume she has the theory only.

It also assumes that parents just meekly accept it and that you don't have the parents of the best phoning up to complain that 'little Johnny isn't being stretched and is bored' - or voting with their feet and finding a school that will 'stretch' him. Or that the parent of the struggling child won't be telling you that they are having sleepless nights with worry and are crying over test results etc or they. One with their feet and find a school that is going to give the extra help.
You only have to read MN to know this is the case. MNetters are very keen on stretching children!

It also assumes that the child will ask questions or say if they don't understand- it doesn't take account of many who will just keep silent, especially if they look around and everyone appears to follow with ease. You don't pick this up until you mark the work and find that the entire lesson was wasted on 3 or 4 children - then what do you do? 26 children are ready to go on and you have the little gang that are not ready. Do you carry on regardless or bore the rest stiff by going over again?

Standing in the front of the class you don't know how they are doing. Even with all correct work you don't always know. I liked getting them to draw a face at the end of the work. Smiley mouth if they were happy they had it, down turned mouth if they didn't get it and straight mouth if they were reasonably sure but needed more practice. They were happy to do this. I also had thumbs up if they got it, down if they didn't and sideways if not sure. That is not so successful because they look around and they are not going to put thumb down if the only one.

If it's so good, why don't you apply it for your DC?

Actually I find the assumption amongst the teaching profession that Summer borns will struggle and that's just how it is, wide spread and annoying!

Mine are older Vanilla. They started as rising 5s. ( they did in those days) The August born child was in the nursery attached to the school - they said, and I agreed, he was better staying there until he was 5 yrs. he would have only got half days in school anyway.
Reception is learning through play. They are not going to be in a lower set.
You wouldn't set in an infant class. You would need to group within the class and differentiate the work.
You can set for maths in a junior school. There is no shame in being in the lower group- mine were in it ( even the one who one who got A at A'level) they got the right work.
Many junior schools you can't set- not enough children. They differentiate the work.

Of course not all summer birthdays struggle! However mine did.
They are all different. ( A fact denied earlier by Vanilla)

It is not an assumption, but teachers need to be aware of date of birth.

When I said 'behind to start with' I didn't mean behind at 4 yrs but they are definitely behind at birth! When they are born some in the same school year are walking!

mehit I think al lot of teachers ( and parents) do think it's just par for the course and they all too quickly get written off as less able.

I don't think that they are written off. DH was just about as young as you could be in the school year - started as a fluent reader and was way ahead. Many are. The little girl I used as an example seemed very bright- I was just sad that she wasn't 5 yrs and was about to go into her second year of formal schooling.
However it is a fact that any special needs group will be top heavy in summer birthdays. We need flexibility with school years. I would have liked my summer born in the year below. My friend with a DD born 1st Sept would have liked her in the year above.

My dd went to a selective school. They set for maths. There were 7 sets- ranging from ready for GCSE to level 4a (my dd!) She, and most of the rest of her set got As when it came to GCSE. Are people really saying that would have happened if she had been in a mixed ability class? And the ones that were doing A level work by year 9- would that have happened? I really, really don't see how.

However- since Vanilla tells us that 'all brains are the same' it shouldn't matter! Just send them to school - give them instruction - they come out the same. Simple!

"mehit I think al lot of teachers ( and parents) do think it's just par for the course and they all too quickly get written off as less able."

A very telling post. "Written off as less able". What makes you think that less able children are "written off"?

You hold them back BR so that the boy I taught in junior school and did GCSE Maths (A*) in year 8 of the comprehensive wouldn't have happened.

A very telling remark! My less able DS got lots of help all through. He was never 'written off'. He had an IEP all through school. Is now doing really well. Aged 26 yrs and bought his own house.
Very thankfully he wasn't in mixed ability classes and left to sink.

bertrand IME expectations of less able children. In the UK are low.

People seem perfectly accepting of whole swathes of DC receiving an education that assumes they will scrape a few GCSEs. That they won't benefit from learning things other than 'vocational' things.

And these expectations can set in very early.

BTW I have summer born premature twins.
They started school able to do nothing. Nothing at all. No way was I going to accept that mine would end up in the low ability end of things due to that!

All the evidence shows that summer borns do worse. Regardless of actual IQ. Well not on my watch.

"bertrand IME expectations of less able children. In the UK are low."

But your children didn't go to school in the UK, did they?

mehit the fact that yours and mine were fine does not prove the system is good for Summer borns. The evidence is against us.

Similarly the fact that I went to Oxbridge from a council estate does not prove that expectations of poor children are fine in the UK.