to be horrified at the behaviour in bohunt school

[SEsofty]

Just watched the programme about Chinese teachers in uk. Whilst I appreciate that it is reality tv and thus exaggeration for effect I was still horrified with the apparent number of children who were talking in class.

I'm not that accident and went to a very normal school but talking whilst teacher did simply didn't happen. I don't agree with the Chinese methods but talking whilst someone is trying to teach you is simply rude.

Bertrand, I almost sent an email to my friends and family in China, to ask your question about the liberal arts.

Perhaps I can suggest that you contact the Chinese society at your local higher education institution. There should be students from China, they should be able to help you.

"For those who are arguing that it is impossible to teach primary maths to everyone at the same pace: that is how they do it in Finland, and Finland also has good maths results. From what I understand, Finnish teachers have also tended to stick to more traditional teaching methods, with little to no group work, textbooks/workbooks and whole class teaching."

Hmm--Finland's maths results as measured by TIMSS (the big international maths and science test) suggested that Finland's maths scores are about the same as those of the UK and US.

Finland did ace PISA for a few years, but the thing about PISA is that it involves almost no maths. PISA is fundamentally a reading comprehension test. The "maths" section in PISA is basically soft-skillzy stuff that involves spotting misleading graphs and saying why they are misleading, or working out which insurance scheme represents the best deal etc. There is almost much no algebra or trig in PISA.

That does not make PISA a bad test, it just means that PISA does not give us any insights into how to make students college ready for STEM careers.

But yes, Finland did tend to have quite traditional teaching styles up into the 90s or so, and still does tend to be more formal and traditional than Norway and Sweden.

Over the last 10 years there has been a gradual tendency towards Swedish-style "constructivist" ideas about education (group work, individual project based learning, students sitting around little learning pods doing stuff with iPads etc. etc.); predictably, the cohorts that have been exposed to more and more of this have done progressively worse at PISA.

Did anyone follow the link about Finland reforming its education fit for the 21 century?

It’s quite interesting.

“Subject-specific lessons – an hour of history in the morning, an hour of geography in the afternoon – are already being phased out for 16-year-olds in the city’s upper schools. They are being replaced by what the Finns call “phenomenon” teaching – or teaching by topic. For instance, a teenager studying a vocational course might take “cafeteria services” lessons, which would include elements of maths, languages (to help serve foreign customers), writing skills and communication skills.

More academic pupils would be taught cross-subject topics such as the European Union - which would merge elements of economics, history (of the countries involved), languages and geography."

I am curious how much Maths and Languages the 16 years old will learn in “Cafeteria Services” lessons in addition to what they learned before the introduction of these Phenomena.

This will certainly help GB to nudge one place up league tables….

Bertrand, to which Phenomenon would you alocate your Liberal Arts courses in 21 century Finland? Cafeteria Services or European Union?

The cafeteria services lessons sound entirely sensible for a vocational course..........

I think that UK is doing pretty well if we were comparing liked with like.
If you take the elite schools in Shanghai and the selective London state schools I think it would be similar.

I can't think why we are saying that Shanghai has mixed ability classes when the pupils have been selected for the school, and those who are average or below are not in the school. I think I could successfully teach that 'mixed' ability class- especially if I know that the private tutor will catch them up.

The "cafeteria lessons" confirm my impression that Finland is in the middle falling down a rabbit hole as far as its education system is concerned. Perhaps it's unfair to judge them unseen, but every instinct in my body is screaming that these lessons are going to be soft-centered as hell; less content and academically challenging material, more group-chatting and poster-making.

The students who underwent the (quite traditional and rigorous) Finnish education system of the 90s did pretty well. It's sad to watch the Finns copying the Swedes and Norwegians and throwing away the very things that made their education system work.

Finland... is it a realisation that good jobs are going and what is replacing them , lowskilled service jobs on zero hours contracts, do not require any education? The cash register does the maths...

Finland couldn't be more different to China according to this account
Having looked elsewhere they don't stream for Maths and so they have small classes and you would expect about 18 pupils per maths class.

My findings seem to indicate that China manages whole class teaching in large classes because the pupils go to selective schools and tutors and crammers fill in the missing bits.

Finland do true whole class, mixed ability teaching and so have small classes.

We can't replicate either here- through lack of money.

I have never been able to do it because you end up teaching to the middle.
Vanilla has not admitted to actually putting her theory into practice with 30 truly mixed ability children.

Bertrand, I tought you would admit that Media Studies is not such a bad Phenomena course either, to develop customer service and communication skills for shop assistants and call centre employees. Wouldn’t you want your DC to do one of those? Which career your DC is aiming at?

Mehitabel, you seem so defensive, as if you are frightened of any change in teaching. UK is 26th out of 65 countries, the US being 36. Most EU countries are ahead of us and they manage to teach maths without streaming and small class sizes. The argument about selection in Shanghai is not that relevant, in UK PISA was not administered to failing schools either. It does not change the general picture.

The picture is very well illustrated by the Bohunt first programme. “Why do we need trigonometry? … I don’t get it… We should get drunk. ..And live…” [ Give us Phenomena classes ]

"Bertrand, I tought you would admit that Media Studies is not such a bad Phenomena course either, to develop customer service and communication skills for shop assistants and call centre employees. Wouldn’t you want your DC to do one of those? Which career your DC is aiming at?"

I don't actually understand that post! But if you're asking me whether vocational education is a good idea, then yes I do. So long as it is good quality, has enough content and is well taught.

Mehitabel:
'Students' experiences of ability grouping -- disaffection, polarisation and the construction of failure'

Setting has lots of negative ramifications for everyone, including the top set students.

"Most EU countries are ahead of us and they manage to teach maths without streaming and small class sizes."

I only have experience of two EU countries apart from the UK, and they both routinely set, and in some saves stream, at secondary level.

MathNxiety- do you believe that all subjects should be taught in completely mixed ability classes?

I do not believe European countries do set for maths.I jsut don't.I will ask my Spanish SIL.Please can someone explain to me how you can teach (very) mixed ability maths without some form of grouping and differentiating.Well, actually I can understand how you can do it but you will loose the less able kids and not achieve excellence amongst the high ability students.

I do not believe European countries do NOT set for maths I meant to say!!

It isn't lack of money that affects Britain's ability to adopt a rational education system. It is the protection afforded to private schools and those who use them. Their interests are served by the existence of the current system, which functions as a reinforcer of the class divisions in society. So nothing will change.

In both China and Finland most students go to state schools. The cultural ethos is very strongly egalitarian in Finland and very state centered in China. Fear of being dragged down and the assumption that there will always be something there to do the dragging down isn't a feature of either culture.

I have read that research that you linked to Mathanxiety but the problems of setting for high abilitry kids were that they should never have been selected for that set, or 'bullying' on the part of the teacher.

Bertrand, I can see that you hail dead end “non facilitating” courses for other DC, why not for yours?

BR -- My DCs went to an elementary school where all classes were mixed ability, up to age 14. I had that experience too. I see no reason not to teach primary school children in mixed ability groups. I see many extremely important reasons to avoid setting at all costs in primary school.

"Bertrand, I can see that you hail dead end “non facilitating” courses for other DC, why not for yours?"

Tell you what. Let's carry this on tomorrow- when you're less.........tired.

Mathanxiety- can we clarify- are we talking primary or secondary? I've completely lost track.

Neither of those opinions is necessarily true MadamArcati, and none of that should happen or be suspected in a system that truly honoured the individual student.

What you are saying is that some students and some teachers should not be where they are, and while undoubtedly true, the overall research conclusion wrt setting and its negative effect seems reasonable and generally applicable, and actually backs up many statistics on girls dropping out of STEM courses and general disaffection and bad behaviour among lower set students in secondary.

Setting sets up a self fulfilling prophesy scenario.

PISA rankings show is an indication of up and coming economy, an aspiration for upward mobility, the expectations amongst people that their DC will get a better life and higher skilled, fulfilling jobs through education.

On top of league tables along with Asian tigers there are Poland, Estonia etc. Vietnam overtook the US… The US is thinking down. Finland has just given up, realising that after the demise of Nokia, they do not have jobs to offer to those high skilled in STEM subjects. So the Phenomena classes are a way of managing expectations. The UK perfected this art form..

The discussion on MN always turns out to be, that the education is fine as it is, nothing needs to change. We have sink schools, lower sets, 30% leaving school without good GCSEs, non facilitating subjects… etc, but those problems are not for my darling DC, thank you… I already taken care of my DC, they are fine.