to be horrified at the behaviour in bohunt school

[SEsofty]

Just watched the programme about Chinese teachers in uk. Whilst I appreciate that it is reality tv and thus exaggeration for effect I was still horrified with the apparent number of children who were talking in class.

I'm not that accident and went to a very normal school but talking whilst teacher did simply didn't happen. I don't agree with the Chinese methods but talking whilst someone is trying to teach you is simply rude.

Some thoughts about the programme, some of which might actually be about Bohunt and therefore relevant to the thread

• grade boundaries are decided after test papers have been marked so it is highly unlikely that 90% of children will ever get As in their final exams like in China
• the HT of Bohunt comes across as staggeringly arrogant and I wonder whether he gives his teachers the same treatment, ie blame rather than support?
• the Maths HoD was completely out of line publicly commenting on the teachers in class rather than giving disruptive pupils the eye
• 50 Year 9 pupils are in the Chinese school - does this mean the rest of Y9 have abnormally small class sizes?

Last night was very revealing too. The children behaved when under the eye of their Headmaster. It led me to think that this experiment would have been far better, and might just have had some validity, if two similar schools had been chosen for it; one to host the Chinese School and one to provide a comparison cohort for its own teaching methods. In that way the children's pride in their school, if any, might have encouraged them to make an effort in the Chinese School and try to beat the other school. The way this has been set up leaves the staff at Bohunt wanting the Chinese experiment to fail and so to be apparently somewhat ambivalent about bad behaviour. (I also think if it was to have any real validity it had to be over a longer period and probably include more than one subject to which all the children were coming entirely new - Latin or German perhaps?) If the Bohunt staff were really behind the experiment as an experiment, surely these children would have been told in advance that they were the face of the school for the duration of the experiment, that they must behave in a way which shows it at its best and that they had to behave with their Chinese teachers as they would if their Headmaster was in the room with them - and that he would be watching the film and dealing with any lapse from expected standards. I have no doubt it is what we would have been told at my school, and what my children would have been told at theirs, in similar circumstances - just as they are before a trip or going to another school for an event or match. Equally parents would have been got on side before the event - not over half way through it. Which of us would have allowed our son to take an electric kettle to school for making tea in lessons unless we had been given the impression that the whole thing was to be treated as a joke? Some of the children's behaviour during the playing of the National Anthem was, to my mind, sad proof either of the quality of their education - using that to encompass both school and home - or on their lack of respect for anything except their own wishes, which may be the same thing.

talkinpeace - that's some weird school you went to that didn't include classroom discipline then, surely? I also went to a private secondary school and we had very strong classroom discipline in most cases. Mind you, it was in the 1980s, maybe things slackened in the intervening decades?

Bertrand - sorry to be ignorant, what is FSM please?

Thumbwitch
I'm 50. It was a well known selective London school.

and if you do not know what FSM is, go use google as its an essential part of understanding school league tables

Ah but I don't need to understand school league tables particularly, because I'm no longer in the UK.
So thanks for that.

FSM is free school meals, Thumbwitches.

Thank you, DriveIn :)

I have just thought of something.

This link between China and Bohunt School is not just a one-off; the school has a Mandarin program for its students as a permanent feature of the school, and also takes part in overseas trips and exchange programs with China. All of which presumably requires the appropriate human resources and links with the relevant Chinese education authorities (or whatever) to make the necessary arrangements for trips and so on.

Is the school not concerned about possible pushback from the Chinese side, as Chinese people see teachers from their country being humiliated and treated rudely by both students and staff at Bohunt? I just did a Chinese Google search for the show, and Chinese news sources and people are watching the program and commenting.

'Selective schools only take the above average and therefore it is very unfair to compare. If they were forced to take the below average they would still get below average results. '

Private schools should all be turning out rocket scientists, if they are so relatively advantaged. Yet it seems people are satisfied to compare comprehensives with their 'achievement'.

So you can see why comparison to schools that are basically shooting fish in a barrel is a flawed exercise, as with all the rest of the parochialism that generates such complacency.

It would be far more instructive to examine the ethnic breakdown provided by CookieDough, and figure out how the students presumably from all sorts of different schools but this is not spelled out end up with the results they attain. Contrary to the impression the Bohunt HT gives, it is not all boring or entertaining lesson content that makes a difference. I suspect some students have been somehow conditioned to go to school to learn. This is something of an elephant in the education room.

Mathsanxiety is exactly on the maths - we should look at the stats in our country (UK). No matter what kind of school, fully comp or otherwise, inner city school or suburbs, we are consistently seeing a very high level of academic achievement from Chinese students. That's within the UK education system. There's a further study out there which shows, this consistent with not just first, but also 2nd generation Chinese. In the medical arena- some 1/3 of those enrolled for doctor training are Asian ethnic minorities - if you could how such a small %population pool this is in the first place - drilling down from Primary School stats and up - it's not surprising. All of this should be a concern to everyone as ultimately, your children are competing for jobs and the bar is raised very high.

All my Chinese friends have serious professions, they are doctors/lawyers/dentists/actuarists etc.. And most of us come from poor backgrounds. Also, contrary to belief, we have had a very happy education here, give back and pay our taxes and the cycle begins again with our own children. Three things come to my mind:

1. Chinese families have seriously high levels of expectations. We are talking Oxbridge aspirations Nothing less.

1. Discipline, rigour, sacrifice is the norm at home to achieve 1. Yes. We are tiger mums and dads.

1. Humility and respect is taught. Yes actively taught at home from when kids can speak. And you only speak if you really can better the argument and if you have actually though through what you've read/learnt. Else shut up and listen if you are not the qualified expert!

Finally, money. Yes. It's all about money and we are not afraid to admit (quietly between ourselves), we love to be comfortably off. That's why we do it. Prestige, money, stability.

My 2p!

There are two things which are

What about Chinese children with learning difficulties?

The majority of pupils are not going to have the ability to get to Oxbridge and it doesn't matter how high parental expectations are or which teachers they get. It is for the top ability range.
The pupil has to have the aptitude and the aspiration.

I have known a lot of children damaged by parental expectation- try as hard as they like they can't measure up to it.

I think that the experiment would have been better had the Chinese teachers arrived at Bohunt and they had chosen pupils according to ability and interviewed them first. The aim would have been to get pupils who were interested in it and willing to give it their 'all'. Those pupils could have then discussed it afterwards with both sets of teachers.

As it was we have pupils who really don't want it to work - visiting teachers just thrown in and a lively TV programme where everyone can sit back and say ' comprehensives are rubbish!'
Even more interesting to send some Bohunt teachers to China, teach their way and ask the Chinese pupils how they found it.

I also think that our pupils compete well in the job market against Chinese pupils because you need more than exam results.
I also wonder how pupils do in the vast areas of China that are very rural and not showcased.

I bet they don't make the statistics zazzie

All my Chinese friends have serious professions, they are doctors/lawyers/dentists/actuarists etc.

Let alone the thousands of Chinese here in the UK working illegally for Gangmasters and in the back of Chinese restaurants.

Get real - you may live in a professional bubble, do not extrapolate it to the whole country

I don't think that China is mad enough to think that all the population has the same ability. Doctors/lawyers/ dentists /actuaries etc couldn't possibly live and earn money without receptionists, nurses, cleaners, car mechanics, factory machinists etc etc etc.
The 'tiger' mother may be able to influence, but even she can't make a top lawyer out of a child with a below average IQ. She not only has to have a child with the ability, she has to have one strong enough to take it without a nervous breakdown and she needs a complient one who will do as it is told and not rebel. You don't get to choose the genes that are passed on out of the vast gene pool.

Mathanxiety- can i backtrack a bit and ask you to explain why you think Bohut's results are second rate - and what you consider first rate results?

The results would have to bear in mind that Bohunt has not selected for ability. If an average child manages to get all As the exam system is too easy and needs changing to challenge the top ability.

Bohunt is a comp.
Its intake accurately reflects the population in and on the edges of its catchment.
There is no academic selection to get into that school.
There may be financial selection for those whose parents were not born in the area
but the school does not select other than by the published code.

I've been watching the programme and what I find staggering which has nothing to do with academic ability is the lack of respect for the teachers. What astonished me in last night's programme is when one of the parents commented that it is for the school to discipline the children. Surely, as responsible parents we need to take responsibility for their actions and bring them up with good morals and manners from a young age.

I find teachers do not get the support of some parents which make their job of teaching our children even more difficult! Under no circumstances would I allow my child take a kettle to school even if it's a 12 hour day, it's a health and safety risk to themselves and others.

Unfortunately (or fortunately?) I do live in a middle class bubble. I was commenting on stats available and my own experience. Of course, one cannot generalise to the rest of the UK Chinese population but I think I am ' more' qualified than most when I say I am part of an active Uk Chinese community (of all backgrounds and how they got here is somewhat irrelevant to this discussion) - that I have yet to meet a Chinese parent with very high aspirations for their offspring and all the associated home qualities that I have just described - respect, humility etc.

On the other hand, a poster made a point about what of those who are not grade A achievers. That's a very good point as its not something that is applauded. If you struggle, you just try harder or we think of something else. That area is grey - admittedly in my social circle I don't know anyone who hasn't been to Uni and is not a high flyer. The odds my children making it to Oxbridge are slim but the aspiration is there. That's the kind of insight I'm trying to relay here - in trying to explain the stats.

As I suggested, I would say the results attained by UK students of Asian backgrounds are pretty good, perhaps even 'excellent'.

Others think the results of top tier and second tier private schools are pretty good.

I think the column to look at is the A - A. Looking at the A - C result skews the perspective. Last year almost 70% of exams received a C or higher. Bohunt is very much part of the pack if you look at the A* - C results. However Polish, Chinese, Statistics and Global Perspectives are the only subjects where the vast majority of students did very well.

I disagree with the idea that students need above average 'ability' to do well in school. What is needed is a willing student, a large amount of resilience (which can be consciously developed or encouraged by the parent) and willingness on the part of the parent to pay consistent and appropriate attention to the direction the student is heading. Plus the important element of belief in oneself -- if you start with the idea that Oxbridge is only for the favoured few and the assumption that you are not part of that magic circle then of course you are not going to get in. Realising that somebody has to get in and figuring 'why not you' otoh, might give you the seed of an ambition.

Working really hard in school and being accountable to a parent who has their eye on the ball does not necessarily lead to nervous breakdowns. It will, however, get you into a top university.

In a country with a population in the billions, it doesn't really matter how many Chinese students don't make the stats. There are more then enough excellent students being turned out from schools in Shanghai to make a global impact.

I much prefer our system where we support the child we have. I definitely applaud my non academic child. He is doing wonderfully well.
How appalling if he felt that whatever he did, however hard he tried, he is 'not good enough' and is less highly regarded than his brother who just happened to be more academic.
My children are all doing their first choice - not one wanted to go to Oxbridge. There are other things in life!

All I can see is that I could boast as a mother- because for some strange reason there seems to be the idea that a parent with children who have attained the highest result is a wonderful- and no understanding that you can get that and be a dreadful parent!

So we are supposed to copy a system where one city has excellent results and they don't care about the rest?

Thankfully UK tries with everyone and keeps trying.

I really can't see why we should aim for Oxbridge. It wouldn't have suited me- thankfully I didn't have anyone telling me I should aim for it.

We do need more than results in the workplace.
I know a firm who has just turned down a graduate with excellent results. He was arrogant and not a team player.

The UK patently does not try with everyone. Those in comps are relegated to second rate expectations and perform accordingly, and far from this being questioned or challenged, it is considered a fine thing if a comprehensive school does almost as well as a second rate private school.