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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU for not wanting my MIL to discuss Jesus and heaven with my 5 year old?

999 replies

Spearshake · 04/08/2015 13:29

I was just having breakfast with my 5 year old son and he asked me, 'do only people who love Jesus go to heaven?; I asked him who told you that.
Unfortunately, my tone must have been a bit sharp (hey, first thing in the morning) so he said, 'I don't know'

(I know it's his grandma though (my MIL) because she has been staying with us for the last week and we haven't been in contact with anyone else who is likely to make such comments) Unless he has been on the evangelical channels again

The problem is that I am an atheist, so I have a tough time with such discussions. He asked me what God is the other day, and I asked him to wait until his father gets home and he can answer (he was brought up more religiously than me)

Any ideas from fellow mumsnetters of a similar religious (or non-) bent on how to deal with such ideas would be most welcome.

Thank you!

OP posts:
Lashalicious · 04/08/2015 19:05

We're Catholic and I similarly do not want my young son to be indoctrinated, at the most impressionable stage of his life, by anyone who has a bias against our Christian beliefs. I agree with you, OP, and others here, that people do not have the right to have little "talks" with other people's children about what their particular belief set is and infer that it is superior or is the truth over what the parents believe.

What your mil is doing is wrong on a couple of different levels. Trying to evangelize her beliefs onto your child and then further excluding and fear mongering "If you don't love Jesus, you won't go to heaven." That is an offensive thing to say to a little child! That statement infers a bunch of offensive concepts that is disturbing.

I think you as the parent should be the one to introduce these topics to your child, on your timetable, explaining what you believe and why, then as she gets older, she will read and learn more to build on your words of wisdom and make her own choices.

I would never, ever try to evangelize to other people's children knowing that they are atheists, or something else. My son is good friends with a little girl who has atheist parents, and I respect their right to raise her the way they see best and I expect the same from them. I talk to my son about other belief systems including atheism and agnosticism and explain what we believe and why, on a timetable appropriate to his age and level of understanding and in the light of respect towards people who believe differently.

I don't blame you for being upset. You could ask mil to stop introducing these topics and that you will be the one to do so as you are the parent.

DoraGora · 04/08/2015 19:06

I meant that theycallme was relating experiences to bertrand.

SmillasSenseOfSnow · 04/08/2015 19:07

How can a person 'relating their experiences' lead a 5 year old to the conclusion that only people who love Jesus go to Heaven?

That must be some pretty spectacular experience.

Grin Was about to say something similar. Interesting definition of experience.

JasperDamerel · 04/08/2015 19:07

It's really grim having adult Christians preach at you while you are a child. for some reason, the preachy adults don't seem to realise that telling you that sinners will suffer eternal torments in hell, and a little while later that your mother is a sinner makes the religion seem utterly terrifying and deeply unpleasant. I still feel scared and panicky if I go to a church where people are even the very nicest sort of preachy evangelical. Liberal Anglo-Catholic C of E churches are pretty much the only ones that don't make me deeply uncomfortable.

Theycallmemellowjello · 04/08/2015 19:12

Yes I understand that - I am saying that if you understand 1) and 2) then there's no reason for you to still believe that 'feeling' X is an inherent truth is an argument for it being one. And yet I believe. That's my entire point. I have an irrational belief. And I think most atheists do. I think most atheists look at, say, a child-murderer, and believe that person has done something evil, not that person has violated certain social norms which we have been accultured to believe in because they foster social cohesion but which have, from an objective standpoint, no moral content. I think it's completely disingenuous to suggest that "rational atheists" think otherwise.

And in fact, your argument betrays this: any objective morality a rational atheist cares to think exists probably doesn't negatively impact various groups of society. You're saying that a moral system can have a negative impact - that is, negative beyond its own terms, but in some objective terms which can be used to compare moral systems.

Mehitabel6 · 04/08/2015 19:12

I think that people get really odd ideas of what the church would say.

I needed advice about how to talk about death with my toddler. (This was over 30 yrs ago but I think it is still an area that poorly covered). I can't remember who I asked - probably Cruse or CAB- anyway I got referred to a church based counsellor. ( no one else seemed to do it) Her advice was not to mention heaven - far too confusing for a small child. It was to make sure he understood it was final, you couldn't come back, and concentrate on memories etc.

noblegiraffe · 04/08/2015 19:13

I had a Children's Bible as a child that had a cheery picture of Jezebel with her head cracked open on a pavement being eaten by dogs.

Put the fear of God into me it did. I expect that was the point.

Mehitabel6 · 04/08/2015 19:16

I think that it should be the child who introduces it - to their timetable. Just answer questions. I can't see why they can't question anyone. If granny goes to church why wouldn't the child ask questions and why can't granny answer.

sadwidow28 · 04/08/2015 19:17

My SIL is atheist and our entire family is Catholic.

We respected her views when we minded DN and she respected our views. We would go to two separate Masses so that DN was looked after whilst we fulfilled our Sunday duties.

If DN asked a question, we would answer that "I believe ...... but not everyone believes that." I shouldn't have to try to answer a question from an atheist's point of view any more than my nephew's Mum should try to explain our Catholic beliefs.

Since DN was 13 years old, he and I have 'critical thinking' conversations - which he loves. If parents say that they will allow a child to choose, the child has to have some yard-sticks to measure against.

DoraGora · 04/08/2015 19:17

The Oxford Children's History, with its pictures of Christians being eaten by lions isn't much better. Our copy doesn't get much use.

Mehitabel6 · 04/08/2015 19:17

It makes it seem very mysterious if the child asks granny a question and granny has to say ' mummy wants to be the one to talk about it when she is ready'.

BertrandRussell · 04/08/2015 19:19

"That's an interpretation. Another one was that she was simply relating her experiences."

See? Completely dismissive.

BertrandRussell · 04/08/2015 19:22

"It makes it seem very mysterious if the child asks granny a question and granny has to say ' mummy wants to be the one to talk about it when she is ready'."

All granny has to say is that people believe lots of different things. She does not say that only people who believe in Jesus go to heaven or whatever it was.

SmillasSenseOfSnow · 04/08/2015 19:22

And I think most atheists do. I think most atheists look at, say, a
child-murderer, and believe that person has done something evil, not that person has violated certain social norms which we have been accultured to believe in because they foster social cohesion but which have, from an objective standpoint, no moral content. I think it's completely disingenuous to suggest that "rational atheists" think otherwise.

And I think it's completely daft to argue that 'most atheists' believe that when you have no evidence they do. I don't make claims about what other people believe by assuming they believe the same as me. I've seen a good few atheists talking about this topic express that they have no need of a concept of 'evil' in the sense you talk about when talking about the act of the 'child-murderer'.

You're saying that a moral system can have a negative impact - that is, negative beyond its own terms, but in some objective terms which can be used to compare moral systems.

Yes. Because concepts of moral systems are variable and can have varying impacts on people which said people can find objectionable. I'm not sure what your point is. I don't want people to believe in objective moralities if said 'objective' moralities than risk being imposed on others, including potentially me or people I care about. And that is entirely ignoring the concept of an evolved altruism.

noblegiraffe · 04/08/2015 19:24

Dora, can't you see that a children's history book having grim pictures is completely different to a book with an agenda having a grim picture accompanied by a story telling you that this happened to her because she worshipped the wrong God? It's like 'only people who love Jesus go to heaven' with nails in.

DoraGora · 04/08/2015 19:25

Well, OK, bertrand. But, not to be allowed to comment on anything would make the religious person's opinion very nearly indistinguishable from complete silence. Maybe that's the idea.

SmillasSenseOfSnow · 04/08/2015 19:25

Come off it, Dora.

noblegiraffe · 04/08/2015 19:27

I think if my child said 'Do only people who love Jesus go to Heaven?' I wouldn't answer with a mild 'some people believe that'. I couldn't. It's a threat. I'd have to say 'that doesn't sound very nice, what about babies?'

Even the Catholic church has struggled with the baby issue.

It's a fucking offensive thing to say to a 5 year old.

Mehitabel6 · 04/08/2015 19:29

You can't actually control what other people say. If you really don't like it then that is your basis for discussion. If it is your mother or MIL and you know they have peculiar beliefs like the church being a cosy club to get to heaven then you need to monitor it a bit.

SolidGoldBrass · 04/08/2015 19:35

I think that part of discussing superstition with your DC has to include the political dimensions of it. You can explain (in stages) that some people believe their imaginary friends are real and that this makes them happier and encourages them to do nice things, and that's OK - but you don't actually need an imaginary friend to make you do nice things. But you do, particularly once a kid is old enough to be taking more notice of the world around him/her, explain to your children that some people are silly and unpleasant over their imaginary friends, and like to have fights about whose imaginary friend is the biggest and best and that really, while it's OK to have an imaginary friend, it's not a big enough deal to start fights over.

BertrandRussell · 04/08/2015 19:48

"
Well, OK, bertrand. But, not to be allowed to comment on anything would make the religious person's opinion very nearly indistinguishable from complete silence. Maybe that's the idea."

Here's an idea. How about you comment on what people have actually said, not what you think/want them to have said?

DoraGora · 04/08/2015 19:56

Aren't a lot of the fights about interpretations of the holy books and access to the holy places? At least that was what the Crusades were about. I suppose you could use Ricky Gervais' splendid theological arguments about imaginary friends. But, all you'd manage would be to confuse your child for a little bit longer. The Caliphate isn't about imaginary friends it's about power and control. If you're going to teach children things about religion and war, you might as well use history rather than stand up comedy.

Garlick · 04/08/2015 20:02

I struggle to think of any who came from Christian homes and are committed Christians and that includes a couple who had vicars as fathers.

Why? Were the vicars horrible fathers?
How come "committed Christians" are more likely to be self-created than to have followed their parents' path? (If true - it's anecdote and I doubt its generality.)

I've seen a good few atheists talking about this topic express that they have no need of a concept of 'evil'

Thank you!! No, I have no need to categorise any person as evil. In this, I appear to be more like the fictional mendicant preacher than most of his followers. Jesus must have had an excellent therapist.

Garlick · 04/08/2015 20:04

That was what the Crusades were about. - Haha! No, they weren't! They were about securing trade routes and nicking stuff off the Ottomans. As well as having one huge, bloodthirsty stag trip of course.

Religion made a suitable excuse, as it so often seems to do.

ZingDramaQueenOfSheeba · 04/08/2015 20:18

oh I've just been accused of the same thing " you are filling your children's heads with lies and fairy tales"
this is quite hurtful for those who follow Jesus

until someone can prove it to me that God doesn't exist I will believe that He does.
facts are just pieces of a bigger puzzle, not everything can be explained by science.