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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU for not wanting my MIL to discuss Jesus and heaven with my 5 year old?

999 replies

Spearshake · 04/08/2015 13:29

I was just having breakfast with my 5 year old son and he asked me, 'do only people who love Jesus go to heaven?; I asked him who told you that.
Unfortunately, my tone must have been a bit sharp (hey, first thing in the morning) so he said, 'I don't know'

(I know it's his grandma though (my MIL) because she has been staying with us for the last week and we haven't been in contact with anyone else who is likely to make such comments) Unless he has been on the evangelical channels again

The problem is that I am an atheist, so I have a tough time with such discussions. He asked me what God is the other day, and I asked him to wait until his father gets home and he can answer (he was brought up more religiously than me)

Any ideas from fellow mumsnetters of a similar religious (or non-) bent on how to deal with such ideas would be most welcome.

Thank you!

OP posts:
KingOfTheBongo · 06/08/2015 06:46

Ok lemon, can you give us an example of something that began to exist without a cause?

I don't have any rational problems with natural evil, in this instance you are quite correct.

greenfolder · 06/08/2015 06:56

Haven't read the tread. Typical conversation when dd1 was 5.
" mummy, where does God live?"
" in the minds of people that believe in him"

Mummy, do you believe in God?

No but a lot of people do and it helps them

Etc etc.

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 07:03

Going back to SmillasSenseofSnow and how can the Christian Scientist child work out it is bollocks when told lies by the daddy they love? It is just pure luck which family you are born into and whether you happen to 'fit'. You can't have a world where someone judges who is allowed to have children. They are at a disadvantage if they have strong parents they don't wish to upset. Any child is. Some have it worse than others - a Muslim for example will find it much more difficult to opt out because it is family, community and whole way of life.

This doesn't mean that you can't work out as a child that it is not for you. I can remember an author ( unfortunately can't remember which one) who was adopted by Plymouth Brethern and saying that they couldn't know, looking at the small baby that they had one who was going to reject it with every ounce of his being.

You can't look at your baby and think that you have one to mould and tell what to think. It doesn't work like that and causes lots of angst when parents won't accept them if they don't fall into expectations. I think it makes it very difficult if parents are going to be 'disappointed'. No harm in it if you keep it firmly to yourself but very sad if you let them know this.

Personally I don't understand it. I love my children unconditionally and as long as they are happy and treat others as they would like to be treated i.e with kindness and understanding and they are honest- they can't disappoint me. I can't understand this obsession with they must think like the parent because the parent is 'right'. The parent is 'right' for themselves - they can't be 'right' for everyone.

Flashbangandgone · 06/08/2015 07:05

Unfortunately, not everything that begins to exist has a cause (as any physicist can explain)...so there goes WLC's one and only argument. Impressive only to people who don't understand science.

I'm presuming you're referring to quantum theory... So yes, at an atomic level things don't have a classical deterministic cause... It doesn't mean they don't have a 'cause'. Ps I have a masters in theoretical physics....

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 07:07

Sounds very sensible greenfolder - I can't think why people can't give straight forward answers without going on scathingly about 'imaginary friends' etc so that the poor child doesn't bother asking further questions if mummy is going to get on her hobby horse.

noeffingidea · 06/08/2015 07:14

Saying that God 'lives in the minds of people who believe in him' is essentially calling God an imaginary friend, Mehitabel.

KingOfTheBongo · 06/08/2015 07:16

"I can't understand this obsession with they must think like the parent because the parent is 'right'. The parent is 'right' for themselves - they can't be 'right' for everyone."

You hit the nail right on the head. It's this dogmatic approach that can cause so much misery.

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 07:27

Not at all , noeffingidea - even if that is your interpretation it is a much more respectful way of putting it.

It is the dogmatic approach that causes misery if the child is not if the same persuasion. We now think it wrong if a parent won't accept a child's sexuality if it goes against what they 'expected' but it seems to be OK if they won't accept they have ideas that go against expectations.

It does make mother seem like a woman in a Victorian novel - 'we mustn't disappoint her'! If my mother is disappointed that is her problem- I can't see why I need to keep it secret because I mustn't disappoint her. Why did she have expectations in the first place? I am me, not her. Luckily we are very similar - and probably the majority fall into that category - but it is luck.

BudgeUp · 06/08/2015 07:48

It's not up to Atheism to say whether there is a purpose or not. It's not really up to any of us to say what the purpose of someone else's life is or should be but up to us to find our own.

Atheism in that sense is very liberating.

I find purpose in life through love for my DC and the experiences and friends I have.

I try to be a good person because that's what my mother taught me. Why give credit to God for that?

I know it's moved on from the OP but when anyone (my mother included) tell DC their beliefs in God I just counter it with my own beliefs and the fact that there is no evidence for God. It's quite simple. Tell the truth. There is no evidence for God and it doesn't hurt kids to know that. Why scare them into thinking they have to be good for a selfish reason (not getting into heaven) when it is far better to draw on a natural sense of justice most children have?

BertrandRussell · 06/08/2015 08:00

What's the difference between saying "God exists in the minds of people who believe in him" (which I have to say is one of the explanations I used when mine were little) and the imaginary friend line which upsets Christians so much?

fourtothedozen · 06/08/2015 08:00

*Mummy, do you believe in God?

No but a lot of people do and it helps them *

And would you also say that religion is a destructive force for many too?
Just to balance things out.

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 08:04

We don't know the purpose of life. Maybe there isn't one.
Some people may find atheism liberating- some won't.
People fall into the trap of what suits them must suit others.
God is hardly going to get the credit for 'good' people. We have free choice- there are many 'bad' people among believers and non believers.
Of course you should tell the truth to children. There is no evidence for God - it is a faith.
Why would you scare them? I doubt everyone has read the whole thread now but I explained early on that when I got advice about how to explain death to my toddler I was advised not to mention heaven - and that was church based.

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 08:06

Why not fourtothedozen ? A lot has been done in the name of religion.
I wouldn't with a 5 yr old though- unless discussion led that way.

BertrandRussell · 06/08/2015 08:07

""I can't understand this obsession with they must think like the parent because the parent is 'right'. The parent is 'right' for themselves - they can't be 'right' for everyone."

What I can't understand its the obsession with people saying this. I don't think any of the people without faith on this thread have said anything of the sort. But we are are constantly being told this is what we think.

It's also interesting that the people of faith are always pretty reluctant to say how they would feel if their children were taught as fact by people they respect and love things which go utterly against their belief system

noeffingidea · 06/08/2015 08:10

bertrand that's what I don't understand either.
Existing inside someone's head = imaginary. This is why I was never able to believe in God (and I was brought up in a religious home). It's as if you constantly have to redefine words and find hidden meanings for it to make any sense at all.

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 08:12

Well if you see an old man with a beard who is a type of magician who answers prayers by granting wishes, (and gets the blame for any bad free choice dreadful things humanity does) I dare say you will have a problem with it, BertrandRussell. God is an essence (I dare say there is a better word but I can't think of it and need to get out in a few minutes) . If God doesn't exist for you God won't be in your mind. God will be in the minds of those with faith. This doesn't make it an imaginary friend.

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 08:16

I am going by the word 'disappointed' cropping up.

I taught my children to think for themselves. Therefore it doesn't bother me if they are taught things are 'fact' when I think they are not- they will work it out themselves.
They are atheists- I am not. What I don't understand is why it should bother me- or change our relationship or why I should be 'disappointed'.

noeffingidea · 06/08/2015 08:18

Mehitabel, something either exists, or it doesn't exist. If it only exists 'for people who believe in it' then it isn't real. It's imaginary.

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 08:20

There is no arguing with someone who is so literal. I am not ignoring posts- I am off out now.

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 08:20

Faith is not fact.

fourtothedozen · 06/08/2015 08:26

Therefore it doesn't bother me if they are taught things are 'fact' when I think they are not- they will work it out themselves.

So if you sent your kids to school and they were told that the capital of Kenya is Wisconsin, or that air is made up mostly of hydrogen you would be fine with that? Because they could always "work it out themselves" later?

BertrandRussell · 06/08/2015 08:30

Oh, right. So being a bit disappointed if your child chooses a different path is the same as ""I can't understand this obsession with they must think like the parent because the parent is 'right'." Hmm

And I'm sorry, but I find it impossible to believe that if you have something in your life and wonderful and sustaining as you find your faith, you wouldn't be a bit sad and disappointed if your children decide not to give themselves that solace. I was a bit disappointed that my dd doesn't like The Chalet School books, and my son doesn't like cheese or strawberries and neither of them like Bach because they are things that have given me great pleasure in my life and I was hoping to share them. But that doesn't mean I was obsessed with them thinking the same as me!

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 08:30

I think Inwould be having words with the Head and changing schools!
Facts are not faith.
I would not expect them to be taught Genesis as a fact.
Anyway- miles late for going out!

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 08:34

I sent mine to a school where religion was not taught as fact. Anything had 'Christians believe..... ' in front of it. I know this because I did supply teaching there and sat through plenty of assemblies.

BertrandRussell · 06/08/2015 08:43

And as usual- back to "I'm all right, Jack" The default position of Christians in this counters.