to ask if most of you realise the tax credits cuts affect people who work, not the unemployed?

[ssd]

yes, that's right, people who work get tax credits, you must work to get them

the cuts affect people in work, not people who dont work

I'm fed up reading here about the lazy unemployed who will get their tax credits cut...err no they wont.

In response to the Op, yes I do think people understand that credits are being given to those who work.

I just think that there is a strong appetite in the country to reduce the amount of benefits and credits being given out, full stop. Obviously the "scrounger" arguement gets the most publicity, but many, including myself, believe that it is business that should be paying people properly, not the state "topping up".

Some people get hurt in the process of making even the "right" changes. That is horrid and I truly don't know how that should be best managed/ facilitated in the short term.

And those that have always milked the system will continue to do so.
They always find a way.

What the hell happened to supporting yourself?

We realised decades ago that "supporting yourself" if you are a person who needs to work for a living involves living a harsh, shitty life where you have no security, where illness can wipe you out, where you can't improve your lot through education, where there is no decent infrastructure, where you have no recourse to the law unless you are rich.

And we decided that even though it was impossible for individual workers to fully support themselves, that there are millions of us and if we pool our resources we can create a system of social insurance or social security, where we all pay and everyone gets medical care, everyone gets free education, everyone gets clean streets and proper sanitation, anyone who can't find work is supported, nobody needs to go cap in hand to charities to avoid starving.

And the wealthy didn't like that, because it's much easier to exploit desperate people.

But now quite a lot of stupid working people are under the illusion that they "support themselves", when in fact they are massively subsidised by living in the remnants of the welfare state.

And these stupid, vindictive, envious people want to take away any possibility of the people at the bottom living a decent life.

They think it is "sad" that people who are poorer than they are are clever enough to work out that life is better if you don't work loads of overtime for a net increase of £1 per hour.

And a lot of other people have decided that they are not prepared to subsiidise people choosing to work less hours because they might lose benefit. Whether they are stupid or not is beside the point. Somebody said further upthread they would have to earn a crazy amount to support themselves and pay their rent. Well many people don't earn crazy amounts and are being taxed on pitifully low salaries and money doled out right left and centre to subsidise people who are living beyond their means. . Totally wrong.

Great post bath

Thing is, some of those at the top are very unaware of just how little many workers at the bottom make.
I think all incentive to work hard is lost, once you realise you can't buy property, pay your rent... Just generally get on really.
I think it is also a common misconception that min wage jobs are for those 'starting out' . They just aren't. Families (without help) would be expected to survive from a salary of approx 13k.

Not £13k, 2 x £13k (in my world men and women have to work full time so that would be two wages not one).

not if their is only one parent

I was basing it on the one, that is a situation many families live with.
red when your children were small, did you use full time childcare for them?

But is IS for financial gain, that extra £10, £20 or £30 they won't work for is how much extra they would have AFTER any reductions in benefits

What about after childcare?

Twenty hours a week isn't enough to support two adults and children, refusing to do extra hours as benefits will be lowered shows what a lack of shame our society now has.

Living beyond ones means is common place for many with wants coming before commen sense and responsibility.

Greed and lack of self motivation has led to these cuts, others are fed up of working hard and paying tax that allows others to not too.

Trip, there are over 3 million working families claiming tax credits. Thats a lot of working families to sneer at.

refusing to do extra hours as benefits will be lowered shows what a lack of shame our society now has.

Expecting people to work extra hours for almost no financial gain shows what a lack of shame our society has.

We expect the poor to work against their own interests, to make decisions no rational person would make, because by virtue of being poor, and needing help, we think that means we own them.

I suport the changes, short term pain. We have got into a terrible situation where tax payers are supporting employers that pay low wages.

Its not a myth that a large number on tax credits have no incentive to work more or better themselves with promotions as they revive more stress and work for the same money.

The people that voted for this goverment are fully aware of this and support it.

"red when your children were small, did you use full time childcare for them?"

Yes, I worked until I went into labour and I went back full time when the baby was 2 weeks old and I have worked full time at least 5 - 7 days a week ever since for 30 years. We had three under 4 at one time. It is not fun but it ensures the state does not take on my own personal responsibility which is to pay for my own children and pay more back into the system than I take out and that is a very fundamental moral principle for me and many other voters who are very much behind these changes.

Thank you for your reply red
I'm thinking about affordability for families on low wages really. I'm assuming this wasn't an issue?
I'd go to work full time, if l could find care for my children. The times when they are sick particularly worry me as l don't like letting people down.

But just where are these promotions supposed to come from? With this current mentality it is a race to the bottom not the top. Employers paying a living wage is terrific, but, nobody is going to tackle the issue of those numbers (mainly women) in poorly paid work with zero hours contracts who rely on benefits to keep their families clothed and fed. Why would you, if you worked in say a care home, work extra hours and risk fucking up your housing benefit, tax credit claim or whatever, if it meant leaving your income insecure. The myth is that people are living this lifestyle out of choice. We all want secure work, a decent wage. It isn't just big businesses that will have to pay for that, it is everyone. Your parents in the care home, your weekly shop, your kids education or childcare, your kids dinner money. We will all still have to pay for that. Does it make it any more fair or equitable that way or maybe tax credits are a good way of ensuring that families have access to a decent income to bring up their children. Otherwise it will always be the lower paid that suffer far more and the division between rich and poor will just become ever more apparent. It already is.

We both earned the same (I was 22 when the first was born ) and one of us worked for nothing for a year which we felt was morally the right thing to do even if it did mean early starts, breastfeeding most of the night and all the rest and yes I did get promotion in due course.

We paido ne peron to look after all 3 at once which is cheapest and we had to mvoe hundreds of miles from all family for work to find jobs so I think we got something like one night's babysitting from family over about 5 yearsw! Not easy but that sacrifice paid off.

Believe it or not hard workers do get promotions. My 20 something daughters have worked really hard and surprise surprise got pay rises. Same with many teachers - they start on lowish pay although obviously more than the minimum wage and work their way up to be head of department. Ditto my cleaner who started from nothing and now has main job at a hotel making sure other people turn up, managing a rota etc etc. Or in a super market even there there are some promotion possibilities.

Some hard workers do. But many hard workers don't. I am glad for your children Red but that is your life, not everyone's.

Well, l think l might try the supermarket then!
I was self employed for a long time,l need to start over.

Totally agree red! You are a fresh air - you should run for pm!

Too many people these days expect others to pay for them rather than providing for themselves.

RedDaisyRed though what you say makes sense, it seems like its in a bubble and takes no account of how things have changed corporately with the changes in labour laws, rent, cost of childcare which has spiralled since the 90's, pay etc today. UK childcare (27%) is DOUBLE the European average (13%) as a % salary.

In much the same way people say just save for a deposit when house prices are 10x your salary compared to 3x when they were in the same position.

Well you could always be a teacher! I'll tell my DP when he comes home knackered, calloused and covered in dust that the reason he hasn't been promoted is he isn't working hard enough! I'm sure that will go down well!

Im sorry for your husband bear
My husband works his butt off in a manual job (skilled ) and he is 56!
It isn't easy. We had to start over relatively late. Dh got his 'promotion' and we are now worse off!

carmella workers want to pay for themselves. Many wages do not help this happen.