to think that the Calais migrants are economic migrants and should not be given asylum?

[cabbagesouppirate]

All of the Calais migrants are young men. If they were true asylum seekers seeking safety from persecution they could have claimed asylum in a number of safe countries Western countries already, including France which is hardly a dangerous place. Instead they camp out in Calais, causing a nuisance, a mess, costing the UK and France a lot of money, making the lives of lorry drivers and tourists hell and the situation is becoming increasingly dangerous. I sincerely hope these people are not given asylum in the UK and any that have managed to reach the UK should be fast tracked out of the country and given economic assistance whilst they are here.

Having read all the thread, I didn't see anyone suggesting that we take in all the men, women and children that arrive in Calais every day.

Some posters are saying that these are human beings deserving of compassion and that this is a complex problem that will probably require complex solutions (yes more security at the border, but also more joined up thinking at European level and more targeted overseas aid).

Others are saying that these are a swarm of criminals that should be crushed by the army

shovetheholly It terrifies me too. The lack of empathy round here lately is astounding.

Itsallgoingtobefine You're not bloody wrong. Feel dreadfully sorry for them my arse!

Well done Coffee, Friend and Shove - and others who save this thread from being one of the most depressing I've ever read on MN.

Britain has a terrible, appalling history of imperialism. The national boundaries we set in the Middle East, in Africa are now, unsurprisingly, imploding, because we were too complacent and stupid to actually think about the peoples (sic) we were 'allocating' into countries at the time.

We have played an abominal role in introducing to the world exploitation, aggressive capitalism, and a materialistic culture. Do you really think that now that the world can see the quality of life we have in the Developed world - yes, and I include even people on sink estates with 'neighbours from hell' - and hear repeatedly how great it is to have money, that it's any surprise people from developing nations are waking up to the fact that they are most definitely holding the shitty end of the stick?

Things are going to get a whole lot worse when only some countries have access to drinking water.

We have to start sharing the world's resources more fairly, and stop being so bloody avaricious and self-centred in the Developing world. There is PLENTY of money for everyone. Britain is NOT poor, it's fucking loaded - just that it's all sitting in the pots of a few invisible people.

Thank you for summarising that so well GlassofPort - such a frustratingly one sided conversation.

At the end of the day, we have an unreasonably large share of the world's wealth. We should expect to have to share it somehow - and to a degree that makes us uncomfortable and interferes with our standard of living because there simply isn't enough to go around. I don't know if that means continuing to accept migrants here or changing foreign policy but we cannot live as we do, with for the most part a rather cushy concept of what poverty even consists of, while the rest of the world crashes and burns.

The 'they had to get through other countries first to get to us' argument is childish and funny. Of course they did, but those closer countries will eventually reach the end of their resources for migrants and stop helping, which pushes the people involved into the next country. We are not exempt from helping because we live far away from the need.

MrsJackAubrey Could you explain your comment about access to drinking water please?

Calling people a swarm is pretty shit. However, it's the last problem they have. The reality is that vastly more people in the world desperately want to live in countries like ours than there is room for.

So it's not about empathising, showing compassion or avoiding horrible language. It's about providing help to those we can, and drawing a line at some point which will inevitably mean that rape, genocide victims etc must be turned away.

The empathetic people on this thread have admitted that they don't advocate allowing everybody in that wants in. So they too would deny access at some point. To people who are in dire circumstances.

I think we're not as polarised here as it might look.

Many will be criminals on the run from their home countries. Some will have killed.

Didn't know Mumsnet contained posters like this

Good luck with your 'cushy definition of poverty' on food bank/ credit crunch threads.

Could you explain your comment about access to drinking water please?

Water is in diminishing supply in many parts of the world thanks to a combination of over-extraction and climate change. Water is already a significant driver

If the country that controls the source of a major waterway that has traditionally been a water source and lifeline for two or more countries, takes more of the water, or diverts it or dams it to make up for their own under supply issues, what happens to the countries downriver?

These tensions are already happening - it doesn't help the situation between India and Pakistan; Chinese damming of the Mekong will have a big impact on the countries downriver, and I believe Egypt isn't thrilled about Ethiopia's plans for a lot of hydropower on the Nile.

Here is some info on a Water Stress Index - just as well the areas of extreme risk are nice and stable politically...

I feel some of these views are held mainly by people who mass immigration won't affect. It must be nice to live in a naice place where you can watch the world go by whilst perusing the guardian being told how to think by champagne socialists.

Thank you Jassy

Can some explain how we can be simultaneously one of the wealthiest nations yet also be riddled with debt...we are either one or the other.

" It must be nice to live in a naice place where you can watch the world go by whilst perusing the guardian being told how to think by champagne socialists."

DoeEyed, I live in one of the most economically deprived areas of the UK, and hate 'the Guardian' with a vengeance.
So perhaps it is time to stop with lazy political cliches?

Language matters, especially when it's used to dehumanise people so that it's easier to treat them as 'lesser'.

I don't disagree that this needs a long-term solution that lies outsude our borders. I simply don't think that 'send in the army to sort it out' cuts it, or that these problems disappear when holidaymakers are less desperate to get through the Eurotunnel.

I also think that attempts to dissociate Britain from any responsibility for the dire political and economic situations in many countries is foolish, uninformed and doesn't get is any closer to sorting out the problems.

The 'we're a small island and we're poor so we can't and shouldn't do anything' people are exacerbating an already difficult situation in the long run - as well as refusing to actually engage on the issue of solutions.

What about all the lorry drivers stuck in traffic for days on both sides of the channel, the people who live in Kent and are unable to leave their houses,

To be fair that is not due to the immigrants at Calais, it is because the French workers at the port are on strike. So the lorries are being forced to queue to get onto the reduced crossings, and that has given an opportunity for the immigrants living in Calais to try and stow away on the lorries. But they have not caused the traffic delays.

The problem has no solution.

I was thinking about economic migrants yesterday after a chat with a Senagalese friend. She said she took her child to visit relatives back in Senegal age 6 and left him to stay with his grandparents so she could come back and give birth to her second child (no childcare or friends over here). Tragically, her soncontracted pneumonia and died while there with his grandparents. She spoke of this in a desperately sad way obviously but was also quite philosophical, as so many of her family seemed to have died of diseases we here can cure. I totally understand why you'd try to move from a country where life expectancy is low, I just don't think moving everyone out of these poor countiries is the right way to fix it though. I can see why it's right for the individual, but it can't work as a government policy. I really wish no one had to suffer this way.

Doe, we're 9th in the world for overall GDP and somewhere in the mid-20s for GDP per capita. There isn't a great deal that separates the per capita GDPs of the UK and quite a few countries higher on the table.

On debt - this really is the great political red herring of our time. I don't think we break the top 20 for debt-to-GDP ratio, and our current debt is eminently serviceable. The structural deficit is definitely an issue and one that needed addressing post-recession, emotive phrases such as 'riddled with debt' are pretty inaccurate.

The problem has no solution.

Evidence, please?

I'd go for economic development, education, removal of trade barriers, clean energy investment, structural reforms to rebalance the global economy and the sort of development that we know helps reduce population growth for a start, myself.

We can't cling tightly to our relative privilege and simultaneously be outraged that others might want a piece of the action too.

Jassy it aint gonna happen

Cold wet weather.

Jassy it aint gonna happen

Then we'd best not bitch about people at the borders, eh? If we're not prepared to do anything about the issues that drive them here.

It would take a massive change of heart from all western heads so its very much out of the average joes hands. So you say they should keep quiet and lump it.

My issue is not about house prices or something like that, however what I want to know is:

• Where will they live? Social housing is already stretched to the absolute limit. I doubt they are rich enough to buy a house, or to rent privately, unless they get a well paying job (not likely if they are coming here illegally, in which case they will likely go into the black jobs market and be working awful hours for peanuts). They will simply switch being homeless in France for being homeless here. Why is this desirable?

• What jobs will they do? Unemployment is running high in this country. Yes, they could work for illegal wages and hours on the black market but a) do we really want to be encouraging that and allowing it to continue and b) how much more can even the black market take?

They believe they can come here to work and earn money and build a life; all very valid and good dreams to have. What I have observed however is camps of migrants living on roundabouts in Peterborough and begging on the streets of London.

It is not good for them or for us to continue to allow them to come. We need to get ourselves in order before we open the doors again, otherwise all we are doing is moving the suffering and poverty around rather than lifting people out of it. It won't solve anything to just keep taking them, all it will do is exacerbate the problem.