AIBU with SIL

[fmama]

APOLOGIES for the long post.... thanks for patience.

Both DH's and my families are overseas, except for DH's sister, her husband and their 3 children ages 13, 10 and 4. They both don't work and live off a generous allowance from SIL's MIL which includes 4 bedroom house in prime postcode, private school fees, full time live in cook/nanny, multiple long haul holidays a year etc. Whereas DH and I have 2 kids under 5, no outside childcare, living on half our former household income: we have the same qualifications and used to have the same job and salary, but I had to give up work after DC2 as childcare costs are equal to my salary. You may think this is a situation creating a lot of envy on my part but I can honestly say that I am quite contented to leave others be as long as we are left to get on with our lives in peace.

SIL and husband have several nights out during the week - movies, restaurants, concerts etc., and they host dinner parties regularly for their social group. All 3 of her children sleep with the nanny. We don't use babysitters ourselves so don't see anyone in the evenings, and our only free time are weekends as a family after housework and errands. SIL likes to arrange meetings on weekends and especially Sundays when her live-in has her off day. She texts or phones every week and it is always difficult to turn her down. We don't do very much socially ourselves and after housework and childcare, we simply don't have much free time left as a family. It has been a long term strain on our time and relationship whenever she suggests meeting up and we have to say no. So far we have managed to keep it to every other weekend. Put in perspective we see our close friends only once or twice a year.

When we do meet it's the whole day at their place - we would arrive an hour before lunch, as requested, "to let the kids play", and often find the adults still in bed. We would then mind their kids for a hour or so before SIL or her husband eventually comes downstairs. And only then they start prepping lunch, or driving to the supermarket, leaving all 3 kids with us, which also means we often eat at 2 or 3pm. We have always brought something to complement their meals but recently I have started to bring a full mains and sides so that the children can start eating nearer their usual lunchtime.

She has been making more requests than usual in recent months and in the last 5 weeks we have seen her family 4 weekends. We only didn't go that 5th time as DH had to work. DH took a day off yesterday (Monday) which was planned months ago so we could go away to a B&B for a long weekend holiday Sat-Mon as a family. DH told SIL about our holiday on the Friday before our holiday, and she asked if she could join us. DH said "ok whatever you like".

I was very upset when I found out. DH said he couldn't say anything else to her as he feels that his sister is always very keen on meeting us, and we are the ones saying no to her all the time. He then added how she has said that it's only because she wants the cousins to play together, that she was only thinking for the children, and lastly that she would like her children to be closer to their uncle.

To DH his sister sounds like she lives for her children, and DH buys that wholesale - but I am not so convinced. She doesn't do the morning school runs, they have home tutors, and all 3 children have after school activities 4 out of 5 days. She has intentionally planned trips, day-outs, and birthday parties for her older children excluding her youngest child and had left him with us instead. It seems that she can't cope with the youngest whenever the nanny is on her day-off.

DH is the 3rd child and SIL is the oldest. I feel that he has been under her thumb all his life but I don't want myself and my family to be under hers. I believe him when he says he doesn't want to see her as much as she wants to see us, but his preferred solution is whichever that is least work for him, which is to skip the negotiation and to just do whatever she wants to do. She can be described as persistent while he is passive. I do realise that a lot of this issue could be focused on how my DH manages her, but short of sucessfully getting him to do that - how can I approach this without appearing like I am coming in between him and his sister? Or is this actually reasonable between siblings, and I should be trying to get used to it seeing as I married him and his sister by proxy? What can/should I do? DH and I don't quarrel much and actually have quite a good relationship but this particular issue accounts for 90% of all our major fights. Grateful for any advice. Thank you all in advance.

I think focus on what you DO want to do. Think about what you would like to do more of:

• being at home, playing games, going for a leisurely walk in your neighbourhood etc,
• taking kids to pool, because 2 under 5yr olds need one on one supervision to be enjoyable

-going to events/places locally or further afield that you don't often do etc.

• inviting friends over, or visiting them
• seeing other family members on your side?

Then have a frank conversation with DH. Say you feel your free time is being dominated by SIL/BIL and when there even if the "kids were playing nicely" it isn't the same as your own family unit doing things as a 4'some, what attention do they get from him/you both together. Say you want to have the time to do some of the things you want to do together (as above), but with Sundays being taken up with lunch etc it never happens and the weeks and months slip by and these things never happen.

Start planning things you do want to do, you don't have a standing arrangement, and if you aren't there each week it may be their children might be more interested in yours, as they are a cute novelty, rather than a fixture every weekend.

Wow. Your sil is successfully controlling and "scheduling" all your and your husband's precious little free time as if your husband being married now with a family of his own doesn't matter. His priority is you, not her, but he is so used to allowing her to be in charge of him, he just takes the path of least resistance. I've had this kind of controlling behaviour with my husband's brother's wife, always planning and scheduling all our free time on her timetable. That is now past because they are nuts and we don't have anything to do with them anymoreI posted a thread myself on here. So in hindsight I can see what I should have done and can tell you. Some have commented above and they're righttake the power right out of her hands. If you are like me, I never really planned out our weekends so it was awkward to say no to her even though we dreaded spending time with her. Here's what you do, take your calendar and put something on every weekend day and evening. It can be anything but give it a name and timeframe. "Yard work and tree trimming" on Saturday morning and afternoon and "visiting neighbor friends" the ones with children the age of yours, on Sat evening (this could just mean a short stroll around the neighborhood with them or whatever, or just sending an email chat to the neighbor, get creative. Then Sunday is church or a hike with the garden club, afternoon is skyping with your family and prepping for a charitable event (gathering old clothes for goodwill) and then movie with friends. The key is to have a firm timeframe and event but vague actual times and details so that she can't "schedule" anything around it. Also, very important, you must have other people, neighbors, friends, coworkers, whoever, be part of your "plans" so that you have something very definite and nonnegotiable to assert back to her every time. Fill out your calendar several weeks ahead. If she jumps ahead a couple of months, say you'll check your calendar, then tell her sadly no, we have such and such that day. After 2 or 3 weeks of this, tell HER that you want to schedule a play date or lunch with them on such and such day and time on YOUR timetable. Be civil and polite and distant at all times. Make sure you have plans bookended around it so she can't manipulate the time, because that is really what this is all about, her manipulating your husband to defer to her plans and whatever she wants. In other words, she wants power and control over your husband and you can simply take that right out of her hands. It's not about playing her game, it's about sending her a clear message that YOU are in charge of your family's life, not her. You will find that your husband will be relieved to only see her once every three months (I think that's plenty, cut it back to twice a year if she tries to challenge you.) Good luck and keep us posted!

I'm assuming that you have one child at school and a preschooler, if so there will be plenty of birthday parties on a Sunday which they should go to as they need to cement / make friends. Agree with posters above be more pro active in deciding what you want to do and make arrangements to do it. Let DH know in advance e.g. I've arranged for us to go to X in Sunday, DC1 has a project at school on it and he is really keen to go or he is going to Y's birthday a week on Sunday. Feel your time up and then you have a reason ready not to go.

I would also turn up later when you do go, to give them a chance to be up. In fact, I would phone them in the morning when you're getting ready, phone them when you leave, phone them again when you're 1 minute out from their house. Ruin their "lie in".
Then I would make sure I have enough food for all of your family, and possibly their children but don't make this regular or you'll get stuck doing it, but not them.

Seriously, she is taking the piss SO BADLY it is ridiculous, so make it FAR HARDER for her to continue doing it. Stop making it easy. As for your DH, well he's clearly totally under her thumb, perhaps you should suggest he should be married to her, since he seems to pay more attention to her, and worry more about her feelings than yours. Might make him see how ridiculous he is being as well.

The scheduling of stuff to do is an excellent plan - have it all on the calendar, explain to your DH that it is non-movable and you will not be changing it for his sister's convenience. After all, that's all you are to her - convenient - convenient child-care, convenient entertainment, even now convenient snack/food-providers.

I can't quite believe that your DH felt "exploited" when he went over there by himself but is happy to subject the rest of you to said exploitation as well! that's just so wrong.

I know someone who has dedicated Sundays to her own family and nothing at all is allowed to get in the way - no one thinks it odd when she says "I'm sorry I can't do x, it is a family day".

I have sent DH once on his own before and he came back saying he felt, in his exact words, "exploited" (as free babysitter).

You need to do this consistently whilst finding other things that your kids want to do until he works it out. Because that's what this is all about, that is what you all are.

I'm sorry if this sounds brutal but I think you're being fairly manipulative.

Your DH wants to go regularly, you don't. Neither of you is wrong and neither of you is right - it's just different perspectives. And your SIL isn't abusive or nasty, she just does things a different way to you and it is irritating. You have no more right to say the DC can't go than your DH has to say that they can go, and the idea of you searching about for excuses not to allow them to visit a family member that DH wants them to see, strikes me as a little controlling. If you don't want to go to see SIL then don't go. But if your DH wants to take the DC then that is his right and you don't have rights to pull rank. You need to talk to him about this and try to agree a compromise rather than searching for classes that would prevent them form going.

You are turning this into sides - into a contest between you and his family ( "I need to get him on MY side" ) when there is really no need. Do you really want to create a conflict where there isn't one? You seem peed off that he can't get your point of view - maybe he does get your point of view but he doesn't agree with it. Getting your point of view doesn't mean he has to abandon everything he wants and do everything your way or agree with you. How hard have you tried to get his point of view?

I also think that if you want to make it easier all round then you need to rethink your attitude to your SIL. Your first post does sound really judgemental - it's not just factual info like you later say. For example you say that To DH his sister sounds like she lives for her children, and DH buys that wholesale - but I am not so convinced. Most people live for their children and the fact that she parents in a different way to you does not mean that she doesn't live for her DC. In any case it's none of your business whether she does or not.

On a practical note, why don't you agree to meet her somewhere instead of at her house? A park or museum or somewhere. That way you can't possibly be left as their childminder. And if you don't want to go then don't go. But stop trying to strong-arm your DH into him and his (not just your!) DC seeing his family.

Your DH is putting your SILs feelings and wishes before your own, for a simple life. He finds it easier to say no to you.

You need to toughen up and give his No right back to him. Yes you like your sil, but No, you do not wish to spend every weekend there. You won't be doing so in future. He can if he prefers. Some times he can take the children, not always.

Personally I would have a conversation with her in advance telling her that whilst I enjoyed the weekends I was planning on making a few changes. You need to stick to your guns too , as you won't get change unless you force it.

If I turned up there and regularly found them in bed is leave and arrange to meet later.

• i would leave

Can you book some family time with your family for a few Sundays coming up, so he can't complain you aren't wanting to spend time with his family as he will be implying he doesn't want to spend time with yours?

Did you miss this bit, Anon?
" I believe him when he says he doesn't want to see her as much as she wants to see us, but his preferred solution is whichever that is least work for him, which is to skip the negotiation and to just do whatever she wants to do."

Your post is based on the OP being in the wrong, and her DH and his sister being in the right - but that's not the case. The DH doesn't want to go either, he just can't say no to his sister.

They both don't work and live off a generous allowance from SIL's MIL

Bloody hell, I can't get past this, I know I am missing the point but- two grown adults not supporting themselves but living off their parents? I thought only Bernie Ecclestone's daughters did this!

Your DH wants to go regularly, you don't. Neither of you is wrong and neither of you is right - it's just different perspectives. And your SIL isn't abusive or nasty, she just does things a different way to you and it is irritating.

No. SIL is lazy and rude, and wants the OP and DH round to look after their kids while they lie in bed or go out.

Your DH is suffer from FOG

Fear
Obligation
Guilt

I wouldn't tell white lies. I would do a mixture (well ALL) of the following:

Sending DH on his own with DC sometimes
Going for supper only sometimes (then need to leave before bed time and you get a full day)
Offering to meet up somewhere for lunch sometimes
Saying that you can only do every other week as you have stuff planned

If DH gets arsy with you then so more sending of him and the dc without you. He will realise he's being exploited and he will eventually have to face up to it.

Remember "No, that doesn't work for us next week but I can do x" gives you a huge amount of control back.

Garden - what I can't cope with is that neither of them work but neither of them take care of their children either - the live-in nanny does it 6days a week, and the OP and her DH do it the 7th day! Who lives like that?!

If nothing else, I would leave if they are still in bed when you arrive to see them, calling, "Oh you're in bed, we won't intrude. See you another time." Then just leave.

Oh yes, good idea!

Family or not, if I arrived and the adults were in bed and stayed there then I'd just leave. Breathtakingly rude.

Maybe next time she rings to invite you over, say it depends if they're going to be awake when you get there. Hopefully this will shame them enough to get out of that habit.

If they continue to bugger off out, start asking them what time they're serving up lunch and arrive then, rather than hours before.

Great suggestions from PP RE using her as childcare to disprove her 'cousins playing together' nonsense.

And if all else fails, you and your DH simply need to unite and be firm. "Not this weekend SIL, we have plans. How's 2 weekends from now? You can do lunch, we'll bring dessert. See you at 12:30."

I don't really get why all the details about nannies, tutors, not working etc were included. I'm afraid you sound a bit resentful of all this. Basically you don't like seeing so much of SIL and want more time for yourself as a family. YANBU to want that, and it does seem like they don't really make an effort when you come over (possibly bc they think of you as family, for better or worse). But having said that I see my sister multiple times a week so don't think that one day a week is really excessive for the cousins to get together and so on. Do your children like going? I agree that you just need to agree something that works better for you with DH and SIL - but I wouldn't go down the road of thinking that they are being unreasonable - there's no right or wrong answer.

On a practical note, what about asking the ILs for favours? I presume that if you look after their DC you can ask for childcare in return now and again. They might be completely open to this and it might start seeming bit less one-sided.

Hello everyone many thanks for all your messages and thoughts. Sorry I am having a busy morning didn't get to a desk until now and will have to be out again shortly. Have had a quick read - my response:

I thought DH needs to be on MY side because he has sometimes said, "This is how SIL always is, why can't you just go along", and DH also makes it appear as if I am the one making things difficult for him. Maybe I am! I don't mind visiting his sis with the DCs at all, only that making such visits every week feels excessive for me. DH has a loose fortnightly schedule in his head, but when you add 9 birthdays various anniversaries festivals events Christmas etc it can easily become every week.

My post sought to garner opinion on how often is too often - is it simply just a case of different families, different personalities? I am aware that having married DH I must learn to accommodate his family's way of doing things - up to a point, and vice versa. If my SIL was less persistent, if the meetings are left to DH to arrange, I doubt we would see them so often. DH won't ever propose meetings, but when SIL asks he finds it hard to turn her down.

And if anyone agreed that weekly visits are indeed excessive, I was interested in finding out how better I might explain my point of view to my husband, as at the moment he mostly thinks for a simple life, that it is just easier to compromise and go along, secretly hoping that they go away for long holidays, or, as he has done before, he likes to tell his sister how we are all sick (when we are not). In an ideal world, I would simply like SIL to ask to see us less, rather than for us to have more ways to turn her down. I don't know how I can make this happen or if it is even possible. I'm afraid I don't talk to SIL much over the phone. We chat fine in person. Arrangements for visits are agreed over phone between DH and her.

I thought it was relevant to give a description of their circumstances to describe how they have a very good standard of life and also remain very relaxed, very chilled-out people with a lot of free time of their hands. They really do. And of course this is an enviable position to be in, and I am most definitely envious (as I have told SIL myself many times!). This helps to explain why once a week might not be excessive for them - that they are not spending all their free time to be with us, whereas that same period of time, is most of whatever free time we have. Whenever we see them, whether already awake or still in bed, food or no food, they are always very mellow - it might be that it's their one laid back day of the week when none of the kids have lessons, no nanny, so everything is less structured. Our schedule is more regimented, both my children still nap and they have lunch/go to bed at roughly the same time everyday, and as usual there is housework and usual admin stuff to do when the children are sleeping. In contrast - both SIL and her husband don't know about children and their sleep issues at all - despite 3 children - DH was incredulous. But it's because they had the nanny from day 1, and, actually they also had a maternity nanny for the first few months for all 3 children. I think you can be very relaxed about the day if someone else picks up the pieces at the end. If my own situation is more similar then perhaps I would be more open to having these long drawn out weekly lunches.

I don't want DH caught in the middle, but I am also not so easygoing or pliant, I can't quietly go along with him/her ad infinitum, just because he thinks it's easiest: first fortnightly, then weekly, then holidays, etc - what's next. (SIL often suggests that we move into her neighbourhood)

I will try everything suggested here, and I will talk with DH again about how I feel. I feel that he would maintain that fortnightly is the right amount for him, which I'm fine with - I might go along sometimes, send him alone with DC, or meet at a museum etc., but he will still have that same issue with saying no when asked to meet on the other weekends. I hope he will be able to feel less guilty about saying "no", and for him to recognise that it's excessive to meet every week, and how he shouldn't drag us all along just because it's easier. I don't know how he will get past "you're our only family" and "it's for the kids". DH says he feels bad about how SIL always wants to see us and how he always feel bad if he says no.

(They are away for the whole of August so that will buy us some reprieve; weekly requests usually starts again in September onwards through to Christmas, New Year and until Easter - several winter and spring birthdays.)

Thanks again for all your thoughts & time!

I think it demonstrated that the SIL spends very little time looking after her children Monday to Friday, which maybe explains why she then tries to get the OP, her dh and their children to mind her children for her at the weekend (by being in bed when they arrive, and leaving them with the children whilst she and her dh go to the supermarket).

Epic cross post with you, OP!

Thanks for the update, OP. I felt the same with my sil although there were additional issues, and also we didn't have the lifestyle differences you're describing. I think you are frustrated to have all your free time every weekend taken by someone who thinks it's ok to schedule another family's weekends--every weekend and every holiday using guilt trip tactics "you're our only family" and "it's for the children". I would never try to plan other relatives' weekends to cater to me and my timetable. Asking you over for lunch every once in a while is great; suggesting a movie or playtime with the kids every 3 weeks or so is fantastic; but controlling your family's schedule the way she is, taking over an entire day or both days of almost every weekend and holiday? That is beyond controlling and I'm sorry, that is a power play. Who does this except a very controlling, manipulative person? She is taking advantage of you and I think she knows this.

It's hard for a lot of people to understand the dynamics of a manipulative person if they've never encountered one that is part of their daily life. I used to not understand too until it happened to me with my husband's brother's wife. I have four brothers and a sister and would never dream of imposing on them every weekend or trying to schedule my brothers--they are married and their wives take precedent over me and I respect that! I get along great with all my siblings and their wives/husband. We love spending time together and we love having our own private family time and have never ever had a problem. Most of the time with normal people you can resolve this kind of thing easily by saying, not today, we're just going to stay around the house and catch up on family time or by sitting down and saying, look, our weekends are the only time for us to have any downtime together and so, we are happy to get together every few weeks when it works with both our schedules but we need that downtime on the weekends to do all the things we have to get done and then have a little time with our own children and each other. But if you're dealing with a manipulative person, they won't accept that and until you deal with it head on, it will continue.

The comment about not telling white lies is correct and I'm sorry for implying that you should. I think dishonesty even in little things is destructive and thanks to the commenter for pointing that out. I was suggesting OP fill her calendar with things she normally does but give it a name and importance so that it won't be exhausting to try to fend off this person who is expecting you to come to her house every weekend. You can just say, "we can't, we're doing this and this. But Saturday after next we can meet you at the park from 1-3." I guarantee you, OP, that when you begin putting things on your timetable, suddenly she will be thrust a tiny bit into your position and she will be the one saying no (hopefully), or challenging you with power tactics, it will be one of those two outcomes, you can take that to the bank.

Don't try to change your husband, it won't work. No amount of talking and asking him to say no to her will resolve this; it is too ingrained. He will take it as nagging from you and he will begin defending her even more. Rather, to resolve this, you will become the person who organizes and schedules (as it should be) instead of sil. Basically, you will transfer the power that belongs to your family anyway away from her and back to your own family where it belongs. Your husband will far more easily cooperate with you this way. You can be assertive, friendly, do not say another word to your husband about his sister. Simply tell her directly over the phone that your schedule doesn't allow a get together, and then present a time on your timetable to get together. Just have it organized is the key. She is filling the void of your unplanned weekends (I know it's not fair, but she is) and that's why you can't say no because you don't have a solid answer to buffet her seemingly reasonable (to her) demands that you all are to come to her house every single weekend and holiday and spend 6 or 8 hours there and building up resentment. She is dealing directing with your husband you say...the next time she does this, I would say to dh, "I have down on our calendar that we're doing such and such that day, so I'll give her a call to work out a better time for all of us." Don't make a big deal of it, keep your voice free and easy but slightly formal, call your sil, and say "sil, we have such and such the day you were talking about to dh, so let's find a time that works for all of us, we have a free afternoon the Saturday after next. How about meeting at the park from 1-3? The children will love that." Remember, you have every right to control your own schedule.

It's a theme that comes up a lot in threads: dh's family are overstepping boundaries in some way and the dh wants to go along with it for a quiet life, doesn't want the boat rocked, and minimises/protests when the woman in the relationship voices not being happy.

In pretty much all of these, the common thread is who is actually being inconvenienced. It's not the dh. It's usually the OP who is organising a difficult situation by seeing the potential difficulties ahead, planning, compensation and working so that no difficulties arise, the children are happy and ok, everyone is fed, the situation goes successfully - because she is not willing to see people, particularly the children, negatively affected and uncomfortable. When it comes right down to it, the dh's experience of the situation is often a peaceful one that can enjoy minimal involvement and a relaxing day, where his partner is anything but relaxed. The dh is just not affected by it so is fine for it to run as is.

The one time your dh went without you acting as PA and facilitator, he came back and said he felt used. What will change his perspective is being the one who is negatively affected and made uncomfortable. That will involve you handing to him all parts of managing these visits and stopping doing anything that protects him. That may include the children expressing that they're hungry and unhappy a couple of times for him to realise that's his cue to do something. And then possibly you saying "oh well time to go home then, since the children need to eat now and nothing's ready here" rather than trying to facilitate solutions.

You don't need too inform him you're withdrawing your PA work - just discreetly stop compensating. When a problem arises, don't step up to offer solutions or manage it. Cultivate an 'oh dear' sympathetic face and wait for someone else to sort it out. And as much as you can, find reasons why you can't be there and he and kids need to go. I suspect as soon as these Sundays become aggravating and demanding for him he will rapidly decide he can change the plan.

Right now, through your being a kind, supportive wife and aunt - everyone's behaviour is working very well for them. Your behaviour isn't working well for you, and that's the only behaviour in your power to change.