To ask do you think children start school too young in England?

[Tangerineandturquoise]

I know there will be differences, some children seem too young even by the end of Year R, others including a couple of young relatives I have are chomping at the bit to get started.
Scotland start at P1, so most skip starting at the age of reception, but then I have just seen this www.gov.scot/Publications/2012/05/7940/4 which is similar to the American system for starting Kindergarten (which is our year 1) and it can be deferred, which for some reason they call red shirting in the USA but it seems some parents in Scotland can also defer entry, I know technically you can defer in England but you do seem to be expected to jump through many many hoops..
Most of the continent start later for formal schooling-and are still quite play based when they start.
We tend to start at 4 (with some lucky children very nearly five) with full days quite quickly.

Sorry it is a rambled post

" they should be just painting, playing with sand and water and dressing up, having stories read to them."

That is exactly what happens in Reception. Phonics, IME, is 20-30 mins maximum per day, English might be listening to a story or doing some self-directed mark making or storytelling or some fine motor skills work using play equipment ... scarcely "sitting still for hours"

Yes but Bretzil I have had friends move back from Switzerland because their school policy can prevent women from working. Utterly ludicrous.

Yes my friend said that the shorter school days in germany meant that really someone (ie mum) needed to be at home for it all not to be a total nightmare.

I do think that family & working patterns feed into this as well.

Omnishambles,

That is, of course, the other perspective. If school starts later, and is for shorter days, either women can't work, do so very part time, or (irony) the child has to go from school to childcare setting [where they are likely to learn through play, just as they do in Reception in school in England] until the end of the working day....

Makes me so angry, it's like most parents can't wait to ship their children off to school as soon as poss.
Why have children
I think these little people are pushed into school far too young

Angelface,

It is, sadly, an economic fact that many mothers are unable to stay at home with their children even to the current statutary school starting age, and in many families the cost of the childcare in order to work eats up much of the money earned.

If every child was having a wonderful, free-range, experience-rich, joyful, conversation and book-fulled life before school, at home or with loved caregivers, then you image of children 'shipped off' might be appropriate.

For others, school is where they learn to talk. Learn to play. learn to interact with others (in one particular little girl's case, learn to hug and laugh - she still haunts me).

It has to be about balancing good / harm at a population level.

Can you link to the study after study? It isn't that clear cut. It mostly relies on assuming correlation is causation. It is nowhere near that simple.

Apart from the fact that the PISA results are seriously dodgy, there are huge societal and pedagogical differences between systems that often aren't accounted for, as a pp has said formal schooling and formally being taught skills are not the same thing and English orthography is complicated and not particularly well taught.

England is a bit of an outlier in terms of school starting age. You could just as easily use the same argument about the link between school starting age and attainment to make the opposite argument, since all of the many countries that perform worse in international tests have a later school starting age than England.

When I were a girl... Back in Northern Ireland in the 1970s, we started school at rising 4, not riding 5 as in England. We had Reveption for s year and the P1-7 in primary dvho before going to secondary school aged 11/12. We tended to thump England in O levels/GCSEs.

The school day with breakfast club and Afterschool club is as long (or often shorter) than a day at nursery. The difference between ds1's nursery and his school in Reception were that he had to wear a uniform. He probably had more play time overall when at school/Afterschool club than at nursery.

What they do is far important than where they do it, be it a kindergarten or a school, or a childcare club of some sort. European countries with later school entry ages either have very low female employment or very good (and cheap) formal childcare.

if the scottish deferral system applied in England it would be an option to defer july and August born children ( not compulsory) if the parents desired it once deferred they stay in that year group for the rest of their school life

may and June born children ( the scottish equivalent of nov/dec births) would need a good reason to defer backed up by nursery etc if the deferrment is agreed their nursery place is funded for another year, if you choose not to send them until after 5 which is legal; the extra year at nursery may not be funded, it would be almost impossible to get a deferrment for someone born in april or earlier

legally a child born in september in scotland could defer but very few if any councils will now pay for them to be in nursery instead of school

What a stupid comment Angel some parents have to go to work to support their families. Why shouldn't they have families?! I work, my DD will start school in sept (summer baby) and SHE can't wait and is more than ready. It's just as much about the social aspect of it as well as the education. All kids are different as are all parents.

Wouldn't the world be a wonderful place if we could all be stay at home mummies. Ffs

There are many stay at home parents who do fuck all with their kids and the poor bastards start school having never even been read too or taught anything as " thats the teacher job" and at least they get a decent meal in school.

IIRC Angel has form for popping up on childcare threads and doing that. It's probably best to ignore or report if you want.

grannytomine, I was your child. Fluent at reading by reception and was driven mad by the ruddy biff and chip books! They wouldn't let me skip them and I think convinced themselves that I read them so fast because I didn't really understand them. When really I was just bored out of my mind! They used to make us write down x amount of new words and obviously I'd have zero because there's probably only 20 words in the whole book! So I ended up actually being behind other kids because they didn't believe me. I ended up lying about which colour I was on when we were given a new teacher so I could get back to reading real books. It made me really resistant to talking to teachers about anything because they just called me difficult (which admittedly I was) when really I was just bored by school. I'm also still bitter about being told off for spending "playtime" either reading, drawing or playing on my own

I wish it was possible for schools to teach more by ability than age, allowing those less "ready" for structured learning to be in school but not having to sit writing all day. Although I appreciate it would be a logistical challenge and there'd no doubt be angry parents. The only positive my school did was bump up those of us more able into the year above for certain subjects

I am dreading my LO starting Yr 1 in Sept, her teachers have identified that she is sensitive and struggles with change and I feel she will have problems with the new formality. And standardised tests in the next 18 months! Bonkers.

Childcare does come into it- but many of those children will already have been in some form of childcare, at nursery at least they remain in the same environment for the whole day- probably with a higher adult ratio and they don't shift around, there is wrap around care at school but what about homework? Most school wrap around care especially in KS1 wont have the opportunity to do homework/reading, eating, I know they get a snack, but mine are normally chewing the walls by 530 and some of the children at after school club are still an hour away from tea/supper, at least nursery provides a meal.

In 2009 the Government was presented with a report that said that children should start school at six and added that other countries do not start academic lessons until children are six or seven, and most overtake England in performance at some point as the children grow older. There is a link to the Guardian article here
That doesn't mean those children aren't enjoying the benefits of nursery/kindergarten just that they aren't getting into school until later.
As has been said-some of the learning in a free flow environment that is play based will be like those early years experiences in other countries

Other studies have shown though that emotionally deprived and neglected children need to be starting sooner rather than later.

I think it's a minefield but how can deferment work if the children are coming in having missed two terms of learning and expect to slot in?

Snowgo,

It has been the only time mixed age classes worked in my DS's favour - he started in a mixed R / Year 1 class and simply spent all 'teaching' time with the Year 1s, but the Reception aspect allowed him plenty of free rein to also do what he wanted to do (obsessively collect World Cup statistics, categorise flags of the world, read anything he could get his hands on or do calculations with negative numbers).

The next year (Y1 / Y2 mixed) was a disaster, because the teacher insisted on keeping the Year 1s separate and there was no 'learning through play' time, so what he learned was constricted by what he was taught....

Well at ds1's Afterschool they often have beans on toast, pasta etc do he eats little at home!

His primary also has - teacher and two TAs in the classroom for at least the first 4 years, so 1 adult per 10 children which is not far off the ratio in da2's preschool room at nursery. If his school can manage it (in an area with high FSM jntake), why can't others?

Snow that I believe is what Ruth Miskin suggested at least for literacy, and many schools do some form of it.
A localish independent school used to do it for all subjects but found it caused too much dissent from parents feeling their children were placed wrongly so they stopped

I think its ridiculous a just turned 4yrld can start ful time school can you defer in England so they dont go to school till they are 5 ? In scotland they can start when 4.6 though we can defer dd was a winter baby so was 4.6 when she started i could have but deferred till the next summer start but didnt her sister was 5. 5 when she went so nearly a year of a difference

Envious,

Formal schooling in England, essentially, starts in Year 1 if schools are following the EYFS correctly: and that is the year in which children turn 6, so in line with the recommendations...

Tightening up on the schools NOT doing play-based Reception (which does include some of the most fought-over Outstanding primaries and almost all private schools) might be a better approach than tring to defer school entry for all....

No I don't think they do. I have a son who is both young in his year and developmentally behind/possible SN.
He has loved reception and coped really well with it.
I don't know if all schools are the same but at ds1's school reception is basically the same as nursery, they gradually do more structured work in the last term but certainly at first it was mostly learning through play.
They don't really start school properly until yr 1.

MrsJayy,

All parents can defer until a child is 5, and keep their school place IF the deferral is within the year in which they would start reception.

However, all children move up to Year 1 together, so deferred children may only have 1 term of the play-based learning that is most appropriate to their age and development.

If a child is born in the summer term, the parents can only defer (in normal circumstances) until the Easter of Reception, as if they defer until the child is 5 then they miss out Reception entirely, miss their school place and start ion year 1 IF there are spare places.

My understanding is that there are now - quite recent change - opportunities to apply to fully 'move a child down a year' and the school admission authorities have to consider each case on its merits, but this is still rare and perhaps most applicable to children with quite severe SEN. I have taught children out of year group, but they are typically children who will transfer to special school for the next stage in their schooling, and if 'moving down a year' is permanent, then it would be best to agree it with the proposed secondary as well, as sometimes it is demanded that a child move from y5 - Y7 or Y6 - Y8 to 'correct' the deferral at that point.

I think that they start too early. But I'm a SAHM that loves having my children at home. I'm too aware that they grow fast.