how would you deal with this fil issue?

[flanjabelle]

Fil Loves dd to pieces, which is great and I know she is lucky to have a doting grandfather. However, he is doing something that makes me feel really uncomfortable. He has always Been very over the top with her, too excited and in her face when she was a tiny baby (examples: repeatedly shouting her name in her face, clapping loudly at her, constantly trying to get her to look at him, not letting any of the other family members hold 'his' baby etc etc). Its got much better as she got older as that level of excitement comes into its own with a toddler I think. Dd now quite enjoys time with him as he plays with her constantly. When she was younger dp and I did have to tell him to calm it down quite a lot as she would become upset and he didn't seem to understand that he was the cause.

There is just the issue of kisses. I just posted this on another thread and realised how much it is bugging me and could do with some advice.

Fil insists on kisses when we arrive and when we leave, whether dd wants them or not. he will not allow her to refuse one and will grab her and kiss her repeatedly on the lips. It makes dd really uncomfortable and she very obviously doesn't like it As she tries to get away and says no. He ignores her response and does it anyway, every time.

He also often will offer her something, such as food, but will only give it to her when she gives him a kiss and repeatedly says please. I don't like this at all, something about it makes me feel really uncomfortable. Its like she has to kiss him and beg before she is allowed the thing he just offered to her. Horrible.

He loves her, and means well, and I don't want to hurt his feelings but it needs to stop. How would you go about this diplomatically? I want dd to know that she has autonomy over her own body, and this is giving the opposite message.

Any help is much appreciated. Thank you.

Pick your DD up and remove her from the situation, every time, saying 'I have told you that that behaviour stops.' Don't negotiate. Just do it.

This, is perfect. He's an adult he'll just have to deal with it (besides he sounds a bit of a bully). And it will teach your DD you are on her side and she has autonomy over her body.

I still remember my parents forcing me to kiss demanding relatives, and I hated it. Now, some of my friends will miss-guidedly say to their kids "give the grey sheep a kiss" but I ALWAYS say - no that's ok. If the child wants to give a hug or kiss themselves that's great, but I always leave it up to them, and am never put out if they don't.

What Stepped said is concise, easily understood and (unfortunately) true. Tell him that.

I also think that older people (thinking of my parents' generation - they are in their mid-70s, I have a three year old) often haven't in the course of their own parenting, come across the ideas of bodily autonomy that are very much oar for the course for parents with young children now. I've had to have conversations with my mother about her trying to make my son kiss other distant family members when he didn't want to, and to him they were grabby strangers. She thought her notions of 'good manners' mattered more than his sense of autonomy, and she still thinks I'm obscurely 'wrong' and 'twisting things', but has reluctantly taken it on board.

You are fortunate to have your DH on board, by the way. My DH is a confident successful man but used to turn into a little boy when faced with standing up to FiL. FiL would tell him how much he loved him and in the next breath "jokingly" make out he was a failure and a hopeless case. It has taken years for DH to man up to his Dad. I think I was the first person to ever challenge FiL.

Don't worry dp and I are in firm agreement that they will not be having dd alone. no way!

I will speak to dp tonight and talk it through, showing him the advice on this thread. At least we are on the same page with things like this. it would be much worse if he couldn't see there was a problem with his parents.

my father was a doctor and he used to say 'no kissing on the mouth unless you want to catch everything' so we never lip kissed, it looks hugely weird to me now, inappropriate and ignorant of basic transmission of most illnesses, vomiting and diarrhoea anyone?
No need to do it, be clear and assertive and then deal with the sulkiness.
He sounds like a great big baby who is using the child to satisfy his needs rather than vice versa. Bit gross but not uncommon. There are sections of that whole generation of men who can only cope with a woman under 6.

he needs educating and you and your DH are the ones who will have to do it. it will be uncomfortable at times but remember that your primary responsibility is to your daughter, not your FIL. my FIL (and my dad, to be honest) sometimes do inappropriate/borderline dangerous things with my kids and i've had to say 'no' (throwing them up in the air a bit too high, giving them huge quantities of sweets, etc - all the stuff we survived but you really wouldn't do now). i find everyone telling my DD what a pretty girl she is really irritating and often openly contradict them. oh and don't get me started on all the pink princess presents she gets (she couldn't care less as she has an older brother and is far more interested in playing with his toys). i hide the worst stuff...

i think all the suggestions about body autonomy are great and very important. if you get a creepy vibe off FIL, act upon it.

and don't feel bad - feel empowered! your DD is lucky that you stand up for her and protect it.

YANBU. It would make me horribly uncomfortable too. I was looking after a friend's daughter (aged six) and my toddler DS recently when a mutual friend tried to do the blackmail give me a kiss thing to the little girl. I stopped him immediately and asked if he'd be comfortable doing what he was doing to her to me. When he said no, I asked why he thought it was OK to do it to her but not to me. He was very embarrassed, apologised, and everything has been much better since. I was polite and friendly but absolutely firm.

I think these situations need bluntness. It is good for children to see their parents/close adults challenging behaviour which makes them uncomfortable, and for them to learn that it's always ok to say stop. Our bodies are not tools to be used for "good manners" or to please other people.
I wish my parents had taught me that rather than going down the good manners route. I was sexually abused as both a child and an adult, it took me a long time to learn body autonomy and confidence, and to learn that my body wasn't something to be used against my wishes. It sounds like you're on the right path OP, stick to your guns.

Meant to add, if you ever feel uncomfortable addressing it, think of the consequences of not, make sure that if/when she is put in a horrible situation her alarm bells go off, rather than letting supposed good manners override her common sense until its too late.

Well said Stars your dd does not exist to please other people's eyes or to give physical favours under pressure. It is what so much of our culture thinks of women, they exist to gratify.

It just makes me so angry that people are so incapable of self reflection, particularly that generation. Many of those old buggers can be improved if the women around them shout loudly enough. My late d was appalling in some ways, racist, homophobic, sexist, thought it was all very amusing. I loved him but he was also a cock-end.

Sorry - my late father

As an aside, I was brought up that it was good manners to kiss older relatives and as a child I hated it.

The thing about teaching your kids body autonomy was one of the first things I learned on mumsnet. I really hope it gives my kids a layer of protection I never had.

Have a read of this OP, exactly what you describe: edition.cnn.com/2012/06/20/living/give-grandma-hug-child/index.html

I am firmly in the camp that children should not be forced to kiss/ hug people or blackmailed into doing so with guilt/promise of treats. What your Fil is doing would really bother me and I'd be as blunt as necessary to get him to stop. If he is so mad about your dd, he would respect her more and listen to you when you tell him he is misreading her responses to things. It sounds like it's more about him than her.

My eldest hated to be hugged or kissed when she was a toddler. My parents found that difficult but stopped pushing it and now at almost 5 she spontaneously hugs and kisses them all the time!

It's great that you and your DP are on the same page about this

I was thinking about this again, and wasn't sure whether to post this bit, but though it might serve as a helpful example/warning. The little girl I mentioned previously is my housekeeper's daughter, she and her mother live in our house with us for their protection as they ran away from a severe domestic violence situation. They're more like sister and niece to us now. We own a ranch in very remote South America so things are a bit different here.
I've spent a lot of time trying to explain to the little girl (with her mother's blessing) that we NEVER have to put up with our bodies being used against our will or for something we don't want them to, and that is someone tries something and won't stop then you kick and scream and raise holy hell until they either stop, you can escape or help comes. You never have to stay quiet, or put up with it, no matter what they tell you. In the country we live in, this is a bit odd, and kissing elders is seen as the norm.

Not long after the incident I described above, the children of our ranch hands (twelve kids) were all playing hide and seek around the main house and yard, DS wass napping, the mothers were all sat talking to me. Little girl gets lured out to the barn (quite a way away from the main house) by a man whom we all thought was trustworthy. He tried to rape her.
Thankfully she started screaming and although we didn't hear, one of my dogs did and attacked the man, yanking him off her and pinning him whilst one of my other dogs alerted us. Had she not have had the confidence and bravery to scream for help, and to know that anyone touching here against her will was wrong, then I doubt any of us would have got there in time.

It was a very sobering lesson for us all, and horrendous for the little girl. She is starting to recover, although she won't step more than two paces away from my dog (the one who saved her) and its a long road for her to heal mentally but it could have been so much worse. I really do think that teaching body autonomy is so, so important

Thank you very much for the support and advice. It is sometimes really helpful to have people tell you that you aren't over reacting and its ok to do something about it. Dd won't be seeing them again until the weekend so plenty of time to adress it with Them. Thanks.

Stars that is absolutely terrifying. It hammers the point home, most definitely. Thank you for sharing that. The poor little girl :(

flan I still want to vomit everyone I think about it. She's been through so much already, and then to have this too. You aren't being unreasonable at all, your daughter is lucky to have such strong caring parents.

He sounds socially challenged, cant read facial cues and body language - and childish re the sulks. He also probably hasnt spent a lot of time with small children. He needs speaking to, he is an adult and should a) suck it up b) be sad he is upsetting his GD and not recognising her needs/wishes/putting himself first.

I'd start with the its lovely how much he loves her and segue into ... i just think at her age its overwhelming and i cant tell she doesnt like it because .. then detail the behaviour. And state if that behaviour appears its obv she is distressed and he backs the feck off. He also probably comes from a generation where children put up and shut up re this sort of thing.

I'm sorry but everything you've said about your fil sounds creepy. He sounds like he wants control over your dd and tbh I really really don't like that.

OP I am glad you started this thread. It was my thread you posted on...and this thread is a good place for you to get the support you need.

Whenever you feel nervous of upsetting the apple cart in relation to your FIL you just remember that DDs safety is FAR more important.

You say that a child has a right to a relationship with their grandparents...well no...they don't actually. It's a GOOD thing if they can have that but it's not and hopefully never will be a right.

They're not the parents of your child...you and DH are and while I'm sure you're correct in saying that his intentions aren't bad...they aren't good either...they're not from a good place.Somewhere along the line he has learned these behaviours...from someone else...and they are manipulative and bad for DD.

When you think that a demand for a kiss is coming, PICK HER UP and protect her. Say "No. She doesn't want to."

He may sulk but frankly who gives a shit?

I would say clearly to my dd 'Only if you want to' and then 'Not today' to gp. A high five could be encouraged instead? I would be very cool and definite about it. I get this a bit too with pil but it's really important your dd knows her body's hers and she is allowed say no. The bribery bit is particularly annoying.

All brilliant advice above. Have the talk and hopefully this behavior will stop straight away.

I have a couple of relatives who expect a kiss every time they come and when they leave. (Nothing as full on as the FIL here). I find that making sure i am holding DC at arrival and departure time helps me control what's going on.

Get in the habit of scooping DD up to ''wave goodbye'' or hello as you sense the time is coming when FIL would start this face holding and insisting a kiss business.

If and when you sense DD pulling away from FIL in your arms then just a cheery ''oh, no kisses today then, that's fine!'' from you and move on with her to the door opening or standing back to wave; chatting with who ever's about. Diffuse the situation so that DD doesn't pick up on it.

and good luck OP.

It all sounds so horrible for your DD - the mouth kissing (germs/cold sores anyone?), the making her beg, the over-tickling, the growling, the forced carrying when she wants to play with other children. Sorry but this is awful - why aren't you sticking up for her? She must already think she has no autonomy over her body and that he can do whatever he wants. If anyone, even a close relative, treated my DD like that and refused to stop the instant I told them to, they wouldn't get any time with her at all. He is a bully and you are allowing your child to me bullied. Put a stop to it, all of it.

My DD has never liked being kissed on the lips and always turned her head away, so I started to tell everyone not to kiss her. Some people took offence, tough shit. DD will happily hug, just no thank you for kisses. Fair enough.

He's a bully OP, no doubt about it, and you need boundaries of iron with bullies. You're absolutely right to make sure that your in laws are never alone with your DD - between the pair of them, it sounds like they would mess her little head right up.

Re the kissing, like other posters have said, it needs to be stopped immediately, along with other examples of getting into her personal space when she doesn't like it, like growling right in her face. She needs you to stand up for her, she can't do it for herself. Absolute tough shit if he doesn't like it, same for your MIL. All of this sounds unpleasant and downright dangerous in terms of your DD's sense of autonomy and self confidence.