Emotional affair and work issue

[zeezeek]

I'm currently leading a team of about 10 people in getting an application together for a large programme grant to do a piece of research. All very important for the department etc and the team were handpicked for their expertise and nothing to do with departmental politics.

Anyway, one of the men has apparently developed feelings towards another (female) member of the team. It is a small, incestuous world we live in so their paths have crossed before and they have always been fairly friendly. However, now he seems to have more than friendship feelings towards her. Nothing will happen, however, because he's married and she's a lesbian. It has been a kind of open secret in the team, but we have all tried to ignore it. They don't work in the same institution (she's about 200 miles away from him) and, even if we get the money, they will only see each other a few times a year at most and they are both very professional. I don't know if they've discussed it between themselves.

Anyway, last week we were all at a departmental party piss up and this chap's wife was there and someone (not sure who) told her about his husband's crush. She took it very badly and ended up shouting at her DH, then shouting at the poor woman concerned (even though she was there and obviously with her GF) and accusing us all of being complicit in the affair.

Today I get a call from her demanding that I remove her DH from my grant application so that he won't work with this other woman again. Her DH was actually at a meeting in my dept today so I spoke to him and he had no idea what she had done and definitely didn't want to not be on the grant. He also admitted having marital problems which his crush on the other woman was exacerbating and that if she would give him a chance he would have a physical affair.

As he is a leading expert in his field there is no way I want to remove him. But don't want to be responsible for causing problems in his marriage and certainly don't want his wife calling and blaming me anyway!

AIBU to think that as adults they should sort it out themselves and not fuck up my very important piece of work!!!!

I'm glad you had the chat.

However, you seem to be moving deeper into their problems rather than taking a step back!

He is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

However, you seem to be moving deeper into their problems rather than taking a step back

That wasn't supposed to be the case, honestly. I was just acting as a friend - though, admittedly his, rather than hers as he is the one I know....but can see he's been a twat and I've treated his wife badly.

missmoon - I'm not feeling particularly charitable towards this man at the moment, however, it is unfair to say that his wife enabled his career because he's worked bloody hard at it. I am also an academic and so is my DH and many friends of ours are equally successful and both work - either both in academia or one in and one out.

It's not about making out he didn't work hard. It's about who would have looked after the kids while he put so much hard work into his career? If his wife and demanded a career, he wouldn't have been able to work so 'bloody hard'

As I said she is good enough to raise his children but not seen as an equal by her husband or you.

I get you don't mean to be offensive. But you are and what's worse is that you just don't get why

I think you and your team have boundry issues. I am sort of understanding why the wife called you in the first place though

You should remove him as he sounds an absolute unprofessional liability!

I can see it is hard for you - but he has put you in this position

You need funding - a load if shit hitting the fan in your department is not going to help. Your newbies are probably gossiping about this to all their friends in other departments and this is going to look bad for the whole team.

You need to protect yourself and your project

It could create a hostile environment for other women in the team.

Quite. A more junior member of staff who is being harassed will hardly be encouraged to do something about it when she learns that it's regarded as a bit of a joke by more senior members of staff.

OP, does your department have Athena Swan certification? They should give it back.

*Sometimesjustonesecond Thu 16-Jul-15 21:34:37
I feel really sorry for the wife. You've all known about this and treated it as a bit of a joke, but imagine how she feels. She finds out at a work do that her husband is openly leching after another woman. He is being a complete prick - openly disrespecting his wife and putting his colleagues in the awful position of being gossiped about/having to deal with his mess. Totally unprofessional!

Agree that if the wife contacts you again, you have to tell her that her marital issues are not your concern, but do it kindly. Her whole life is being ripped apart by her husband's callousness. Also agree that you need to give him a kick up the arse about unprofessional behaviour.

I think you are unfair to assume her sah status or lack of uni education makes her less bright than the rest of you or unable to keep up. Going to university is often about opportunity and specific career ambitions as much as intellect.
The most interesting and intelligent man I know, didn't go to university!*

Sometimesjustonesecond said it well and so did many of the other commenters.

OP, reading your posts made me cringe, how full of yourself you are! You come across as condescending and extremely unkind and casually dismissive to the wife of your boorish colleague. You've made it clear that she is excluded from your circle because she does not have a university degree and because she chose to devote herself to her husband and her children and is not an academic. How asinine! This reflects very badly on you, not on her. Perhaps you should broaden your horizons and knowledge and get to know the people you are putting into your little categories. There's a very good chance she's more intelligent than you are. You don't know anything really about her.

This colleague whose behavior you are excusing has crossed a major line with his ongoing unprofessional, disloyal, juvenile, and sexist conduct.

Not to be rude (as you put it), but your writing does not come across as academic or particularly educated but is catty and base in tone. You've shown very poor leadership in this matter. Read sometimes post and the other comments again and take them to heart. Humbling yourself is a good first step in becoming a true leader and a kind person rather than just an ass.

BuildYourOwnSnowman - it is a constant battle to get funding, preserve your position in academia and it is so tough. We are kind of separated from the wider University - a school of a type of healthcare, so I'm not worried about wider gossip etc.

The more DH and I talk, the more logical it seems for him to take this man's place. Easier for everyone, including me, to be honest.

Yes I think that would be best

Nice of you to hastily add she's not necessarily thick . You will suffer for that.

She may feel insecure, because to seems her DH is a bit of a twat

Yarp - yep, I'm suffering lol. It is a continuous battle to not be so judgemental about people.

I did say she was thick, I suppose, and that was based entirely on false assumptions. Today I realised that she's not and that she's actually good company and funny and, frankly, he is bloody lucky to remain married to someone so loyal. I would have dumped the git years ago.

I can honestly say that I am grateful to MN for the comments/views that I've had in the last couple of days and I've taken everything on board. Even the ones that have made me completely ashamed of my behaviour.

Good for you, zee.

Your earlier posts were very much written as if you were speaking within the confines of your cronies; as if you were expecting us all to pile on, laugh at it with you, and sympathise (with you and Buffoon).

Clearly that didn't happen, because we're not part of your in-crowd, and so got a very heightened sense of just how clique-y (not a word, I've ever had cause to throw around, to be honest), unkind and unwelcoming you all come across.

But you've examined your behaviour and reflected, instead of being defensive, which many people would've done in your position, so fair play. :)

It's good to see your latest post, OP. Sometimes it is hard to see the woods for the trees. You've probably been working with this twat for so long and his behaviour escalated over the years that you didn’t notice how blatantly inappropriate, sexist and harrassing his behaviour suddenly was and how it is likely to negatively affect your project, not to mention undermining the women from your team. Removing him from the grant is probably the best solution for your team in the long term.

TheDowagerCuntess - thanks. I like to think that I do have a level of self-awareness (hence why I'm on MN asking advice lol).

Dynomite - I think the signs have always been there, but I didn't see ignored them. I just never realised before now what he was like....and, even more disturbing, never saw his behaviour and anything worth worrying about. The other woman (hate that I'm describing her that way but it's the most convenient) is also accepting it as being just something he does - even though if it was another man, ie not of our group, she would be furious. But, to be fair, his behaviour towards her has always been respectful and friendly. It is a team made up of approx 50% of each gender and the other women have not encountered any problems with him (we had that discussion a while ago after he admitted the crush).

Without wanting to sound like a twat, sometimes I do think that the in jokes and stuff that happens in our little, incestuous circle of this type of research would definitely be frowned upon outside, but it kind of becomes normal to us and it really wasn't until I read some of the posts here that I realised that it wasn't normal. Thank fuck for MN.

Good for you, OP! I've read your last posts, looks like you'll be able to handle this situation with good judgment and grace.

Lashalicious - I am trying!!! Will have to tell him on Monday that I want to replace him with my husband....and am worried that he will accuse me of using the situation to remove him and replace him with DH, even though he was my first choice, and DH doesn't really want the hassle etc.

Before you do anything zee, I think you should get some advice from HR/legal dept I would say that if you were replacing him with someone other than your husband then great, go right ahead. But because the replacement is your dh, it might be a good idea to talk it through with HR first, if that could be done confidentially.

Zee,
Coming in late to a much earlier comment about management....
I am very familiar with the set-up you describe - running projects or collaborations when you don't have actual management responsibility for the people involved (and where some are equal or even senior to yourself).

[not in academia any more, but in small biotech with lots of ex-academics].
It makes it difficult to 'pull rank' and tell someone what to do, and anyway that is especially hard if you've had an academic/social relationship for ages.
But you can be very clear about your expectations. I find that people are often responsive to this - you don't need to be overbearing or bossy, but you do need to be assertive.
What are you thinking about keeping him in the collaboration vs your DH taking over?

Oh, I see you've already answered that.
I think it is important not to present it as a punishment......
If your DH is on board, but not overly keen, how about saying that you will review the situation after 2 weeks, but if things aren't going well he will be replaced. If the guy steps up and stops being ridiculous, then you can all benefit with minimal damage to personal friendships/working relationships
[Not too different from giving a toddler a warning and a chance to change their behaviour]

I am trying!!! Will have to tell him on Monday that I want to replace him with my husband.

What's that joke about Gordon Brown being the sort of bloke who burns his house down when he goes on holiday to stop burglars from getting in?

Even were it not your husband, how is this not constructive dismissal? The removal of a subject matter expert from a major piece of work he would expect to be involved in (ie, where his removal will cause others to wonder why) without any formal disciplinary process? But when it's to be replaced by the manager's husband? What paper trail have you got when he goes to HR and says "my manager has trumped up a nonsensical charge in order to get her husband into a desirable job, and even if the charge is indeed true, there has been no process"?

You need HR advice.

And on a different note, I think that most people experience attraction to others every now and again, but the main difference is acting on it or being prepared to act on it. So he has definitely crossed a boundary in my opinion, even if there was no actual action involved. But that is something that only he and his wife can sort out.

For no particular reason, I've been trying to figure out how old everyone is. I'm guessing the guy you're talking about would be mid 40s? You, 5 years younger than him (from above info). His wife somewhere about your age? Your DH a bit older, late 50s? The sought after woman a bit younger, maybe mid/late 30s and successful? No need to comment if that is too nosy

Metacentric,
In academia, groups of experts often form to write a grant proposal. They are not always from the same workplace, usually it is a case of getting your heads and experience together to come up with something new and get money to fund the research for 3 or 5 years (which would be a collaboration across different centres, and done in addition to everyone's regular jobs). So often working groups don't really have structure (a lot is based on goodwill) and because they are formed voluntarily, HR doesn't really have much to do with it (also each member might have their own HR department because they work in different places). So it's quite different to a 'regular' workplace and this I think is the reason why the boundaries are so blurred.
Does that make sense?

OP, you have posted lots of identifying information on this thread.
It may be wise to ask MNHQ to remove this thread.
I do not know mumsnet etiquette when you think you recognise someone from RL, BUT this exact same scenario is playing out at my institution................... If I can put two and two together then I am sure others have !!!!