To think Lad Mags aren't the real problem

[Mengog]

Over the last couple of years feminist groups and others have really doubled down on the campaigns against Lads Mags and Page 3.

Yet time and again I'm more shocked at the gossip Mags. This was sparked off by a headline about Cheryl Cole, calling her "a bag of bones" on Heat or something similar.

Not too long ago the front of FHM featured Kelly Brook on the cover with the headline 'Beautiful'. This was next to a gossip mag calling her "Fat".

AIBU to think the wrong magazines have been targeted?

If it is "spite" motivating women to buy gossip magazines, *ellie", then what motivates this spite? Why, when women assess each other's worth and compete with each other, is it looks they choose to compete over?

Buffy Its funny how you read whatever pleases you into words. Men whore their bodies and their personalities for money in celebrity magazines as much as anyone. The whole 'lads' culture is based upon idolising this footballer or that racing driver, based on physique, sporting prowess, perceived attracting to the opposite sex, etc. It is no different. The only difference is that they tend to worship, but not self-deprecate as much when they perceive their own inadequacies. You can choose to ignore both sides of this industry, and you can choose to pretend it is not instigated by men AND women funding it with their own money, and you can pretend it not what is wanted by the readers all you wish, but by pretending the issue does not exist, and is not as widespread as it actually is, you prevent any progress and you side-line the issue into some risible feminist by-line. The ONLY way to stop this is to stop people WANTING to buy the magazines.

If it is "spite" motivating women to buy gossip magazines, ellie", then what motivates this spite? Why, when women assess each other's worth and compete with each other, is it looks they choose to compete over?*
Because throughout all of human history, men have selected mates based upon visual clues as to their youth, health, and fertility. BUT, a woman still has a choice as to whether or not she buys a magazine, as does a man. And a woman still has a choice about whether or not she wants to see how flabby CelebX's thighs have become, or how fat MrsY has got over the past year or not. And the evidence is that the overwhelming majority of us do buy these magazines, and go back and buy them again, and again. We enjoy it. It gives us pleasure.

Until we stop taking pleasure in our fellow human being's failures, we will not get past this issue. You can blame 'men' for this all you like, but the problem is inside of all of us, no matter our gender or sexual preference. This is not a feminist issue. It has been co-opted into one.

... says me who sits here eating salad for lunch because I want to lose weight to please others.

I agree with many of the things you're saying, ellie (e.g., throughout all of human history, men have selected mates based upon visual clues as to their youth, health, and fertility - yup). But I think you're overplaying individuals' choices, and underplaying the impact of hugely pervasive other factors acting at the level of society (big corporations, advertising, huge financial motivations - largely driven by very rich men (and some women) wanting to become even richer). Are overweight individuals entirely responsible for becoming fat? If you put the same individual in a very different environment, they might be very slim. There are many different ways that basic biological urges can play out in societies. To see our current obsession with women's bodies, in its existing manifestations, as inevitable seems too simplistic to me.

I also agree with you, ellie, that making efforts to stop shaming, blaming and competing with each other is key here, for women and men alike, and that we need to undergo a huge and general change in attitude to start to do this. But I'd also add that for us all to treat each other kindly, compassionately and as the sentient beings we are involves men (as well as women, in different ways) making efforts to see beyond people's physical exteriors.

Buffy

So do you recognise that objectifying and disparaging women's bodies in 'gossip' magazines exists? Of does it not happen?

Does it happen because men in society have trained us to want this sort of thing? Effectively having removed our belief that we have free choice not to want to consume this sort of thing?

Or do we all just do what we are told because society is crafted by men, and we accept that this is how it is?

I just want to understand exactly what you are saying your perspective is.

Fine In a society where overwhelmingly we are bombarded by media telling us how gorgeous and thin the 'ideal' should be, I think we are fat because we are greedy and lazy.

Yes, there is a genetic component. I do not disagree. On a BMI scale, I am obese. And yes, there is an addictive element to the consumption of refined sugars and highly processed meats, and there has been a concerted effort over the years to encourage us to eat a disproportionately high volume of meat, compared to plant based foods, and companies throw millions into advertising.

But I am fat because what goes into my mouth is not burned up by my body during the day. I eat shit and I do not exercise. I will not pretend I'm some stupid woman who has been let down by the education system and just consumes crap food because I don't know any better. EVERYONE knows eating chocolate and crisps regularly, and drinking fizzy drinks and going to BrandX Dogburger for dinner is not good for you. Everyone knows sitting on your sofa and watching TV is not good for you.

But most prefer to hide their head in the sand and pretend it doesn't happen, and when confronted about it (like you asking the direct question), they will try to blame someone else. For those people, everything in life is someone else's fault. Their kids are badly behaved, blame the schools, they can't find work, blame the government, they are overweight, blame the supermarkets for making chocolate so cheap, they feel ugly, blame society for making beauty too much of a big thing.

Why do people refuse to take responsibility for their own lives?
Perpetual adolescence. Maybe they just need to grow up.

I also agree with you, ellie, that making efforts to stop shaming, blaming and competing with each other is key here, for women and men alike, and that we need to undergo a huge and general change in attitude to start to do this. But I'd also add that for us all to treat each other kindly, compassionately and as the sentient beings we are involves men (as well as women, in different ways) making efforts to see beyond people's physical exteriors.

Humans need to want to change.
Currently, they do not.

This exists in every society on the planet. they may 'objectify' different characteristics of the genders' physiques and personality traits, but it exists and it is needed.
It is not something you can 'teach' out of them.

What you are talking about here is a fundamental paradigm shift in humanity. That cannot happen without a fundamental change in both humanity's structure. you have to move away from a resource based economic model to one dominated by human intellect. That is an evolutionary step that is fairly certain to occur, but one that is unlikely to occur for many hundreds of years. As much as we like to wield our intellect, we are still animals dependent ne securing personal access to resources, and wishing to breed with those who improve our likelihood of survival.

Buffy

Okay. Enjoy your holiday.
We won't have any answers before you get home.

Firstly, I don't think we live in a capitalist society anymore. Corporations and vested interests have such access to funds than their will for society will prevail. Any deserting voice will be quashed by money, one way or another.

Now, what could arguably have been argued as 'a group of wealthy men' and labelled 'patriarchy' no longer applies in today's economy. Regardless of the gender of who is or who isn't profiting, and who is or isn't acting as the agent, society in the west at least is far more gender neutral that the media lead us to believe.

Corporations like Facebook and Google are shaped by boards who respond only to the monetising of people's relationships. These types of businesses are not dependent upon, nor advantaged by, a strictly male figurehead. It is these companies who have the wealth, the information, and the vision of where they want us to move forward to.

The only step back, is a step away from mass media, away from social media, and back to community relationships. A step that 95% of Britains population see no benifit in.

That is how I see it. I do not read newspapers or magazines. I do not own a television set. I do not use Facebook or Twitter. I prefer to read and gather news from sources around the world, instead of being fed what I we are fed to read. I prefer to form my own opinion instead of being told what my opinion should be by a newspaper of a television set. Thankfully, MN tends to draw those with an interest in debate and the ability to think and communicate clearly. But we are not representative of the majority of our pairs. We are in the minority.