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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Aibu to advice my friend not to have a third child because she does not have a career?

129 replies

Rebecca2014 · 12/07/2015 13:15

My friend leads a nice lifestyle with her husband and two children, they have been discussing having a third child. With the thought of the 2015 budget in my head, I told her I would not personally have a third child because you never know what could happen in the future (separation etc)

Her husband is the high earner in the family. If they split, most likely she will end up on welfare. Even if she gets a job, she will need tax credits and obviously we all know they are going be cut and limited to two children. Is it wrong of me to think women who do not have careers should not have three children? due to the risk of being in poverty if the relationship fails or something happens to the husband career.

I know you cannot go through life thinking what if...however I feel women who rely on their partners income are at risk. Am I overthinking this?

OP posts:
Bodicea · 12/07/2015 21:18

Just because they split up doesn't stop the husband being financially responsible for the children. Assuming he isn't a total shit he will still want to support all of his children finacially whatever happens.

MuffMuffTweetAndDave · 12/07/2015 21:32

Of course Bodicea, but he might be a total shit. Or he might be a wonderful human being but become too incapacitated to continue providing for his family, or have to care for OPs mate if she becomes very ill. He could also die, but insurers are much more likely to pay out when there's a corpse, so paradoxically that may be the least financially ruinous option. The problem here isn't OP pointing out the very, very real possibility that the DH might for whatever reason stop financially supporting the family. It's framing it as a SAHM issue when it's also relevant for WOHMs unless the family have a lot of money (which is not to say a couple of the SAHM contributions in this thread haven't been risible).

On a related point, this thread reinforces what I've thought since hearing this policy, which is that the birth rate will probably drop. There may be a mini boom pre 2017, as lots of people haven't realised that pre-2017 3rd kids might still not be provided for. But after that, clearly many are unwilling to risk having a child beyond the safety net. Even people who aren't currently using it and don't necessarily expect to. I wonder if this was foreseen?

RedDaisyRed · 12/07/2015 22:39

Loads of them don't though. My children's father pays nothing. I am not alone in that. Plenty of men give up all work and just let the new wife work so they have zero income from which to pay the first family. Others hide assets abroad. Others incur huge debts or choose to use the family savings on lawyers during the divorce. I even know one who moved to Thailand so his wife got nothing,

MissMuffetisin · 12/07/2015 22:44

A) absolutely none of your business . Glad I haven't got "friends" like you .
B) I didn't have a career when I had my 3rd, husband high earner, no family nearby. But as soon as they were at school I returned to work , then uni, then a graduate career . Why do you think your freind is incapable of doing the same ?

PiperChapstick · 12/07/2015 22:46

Is it wrong of me to think women who do not have careers should not have three children?

In a word: yes.

WTF is with MN tonight, has there been a Tory invasion?

Iliveinalighthousewiththeghost · 12/07/2015 22:55

I'd imagine a lot of people who want 3 children are planning their 3rd now before they hit the April 2017 dead line. I think due to that policy we will have a massive baby boom. Gideon and Dave really have not thought this through. Just like they have not thought through the rules of sending lone parents off to work as soon as their child starts school, regardless of their circumstances or if they do not want to work. They have just gone out and had another child, soley to enable them to still qualify for or get back on I.S. Anyway that is another story

PoundingTheStreets · 12/07/2015 23:35

How strong/close is your friendship? Do you frequently give each other unsolicited advice on the basis that you both appreciate honesty and take each other's POV's seriously? Or is it likely to be perceived as opinionated and cause offence?

TBH I wouldn't advise any woman, no matter what her circumstances, to have a child (whether first or third) without some thought as to how she would support herself if she became a single parent for whatever reason. That's just sensible. But at the same time, if people only had children when personal circumstances were optimum and guaranteed, the human race would have died out long ago.

musicalendorphins2 · 13/07/2015 00:36

I think you'd be out of order to advice your friend on how many kids to have, unless she actually asks your opinion.

LovesYoungDream · 13/07/2015 00:50

YABU. It is none of your business.

cerealqueen · 13/07/2015 01:20

YABU.

Just because they have not had a 'career'- what is that anyway? It does not mean they cannot in the future retrain etc to get a job support their children with the assistance of the children's father, should they split.

Talk about assuming the worst.

None of your business though.

MrsDutchie · 13/07/2015 03:36

Gosh you are getting flamed here! YANBU. Your friend asked you your opinion and you gave it. I can see where you are coming from - women are screwed over by the breakdown of relationships on a daily basis (just see the current thread of XH/Ps and maintenance). It's a logical conclusion that a women who has taken steps with her career before and whilst having children will have more financial options on a marriage breakdown, child-care dependent, and in the future when children are at school.

fedupbutfine · 13/07/2015 08:13

you realise the wording of the benefit/welfare/tax credit claim thing for 2017 includes something along the line of 'new claims'? So effectively, you can have your third child by the deadline but if you have to make a new claim for welfare after the deadline you will still be subjected to the two child restriction.

In other words, having your 3rd child now won't protect you if your relationship breaks down later.

OP - you have had an unnecessarily hard time on this thread. You are not wrong to ask 'what if'. Whilst those saying that you'd never do anything if you only ever considered the worst case scenario with everything, it doesn't hurt to be aware of the possibilities. I am not sure I would have listened prior to my ex leaving as I believed my marriage was 'good' and 'stable'. It wasn't. It really wasn't. It took years to recover financially and I for one worry about women who become SAHMs without any kind of back up should it all go horribly wrong.

And all of you assuming 'good men' pay for their children...yeah, well, carry on dreaming...

MuffMuffTweetAndDave · 13/07/2015 10:06

The problem with the retraining in the future scenario that several posters have painted is that it relies on the husband being willing and able to continue supporting the family at the point the friend wants to retrain. Sure, he might be perfectly happy to do this, either while they're together or after a separation. But he also might become ill, or not be willing/able to pay enough maintenance to allow the friend to keep the three children whilst not earning an income for as long as it takes to retrain. And this, like it or not, is a risk. There's no statutory right to retrain after spending time SAHPing, whatever you gave up to do it and however poor your prospects might be without it. UC is going to require a parent to seek work once the youngest is three. This means that if for some reason, the friend suddenly finds herself without the income of the husband and needing to rely on the state, she's going to be pressured to take the first thing that comes along. Even if she could live happily on the benefits for 2 kids plus maintenance from the husband, that's not going to be an option. People don't seem to have got their heads round this.

It is, of course, possible that the friend has some particular in demand skill that would allow her to find work straight away, and retraining therefore wouldn't be an issue. Would be a bit of a drip feed, though.

MuffMuffTweetAndDave · 13/07/2015 10:08

That should've said benefits for 3 kids above...

SingForBacon · 13/07/2015 10:10

Haha! We have 3 kids and neither of us have a "career".

DawnRaid · 13/07/2015 10:11

I wonder why your friend asked your advice? It seems a strange thing to seek counsel on. Ultimately, its none of your business...and come on, is your opinion really going to influence a decision she and her husband might make about expanding their family?

You can have your private view, though. I have a lovely friend who has three children under five and is currently trying for a fourth. She has no career, lives in a cramped rented flat and her DH (although a nice man) does not have a very well paid job.

I just think its totally bonkers...but I say nothing. Not my life, not my decision.

GoblinLittleOwl · 13/07/2015 11:26

I don't know whether your friend should have a third child or not, but I think every woman nowadays needs to develop as many qualifications and career options as she can manage, and try to maintain some experience of the workplace. No-one can foresee what the future will bring, but a two income household is increasingly a necessity, for whatever reason.
Several younger friends who are suffering financial and/or marital difficulties have all relied on their husbands as breadwinner; all have degrees or equivalent but have never developed any sort of career structure; now in their thirties and forties they are struggling to find work to help with family finances.

museumum · 13/07/2015 13:14

Some people on here including the OP are quite shocking in what they think reasonable to say to a friend!
If I was considering a third child with my DH and mentioned my undecidedness to a friend I would be HORRIFIED if her answer was
'well your marriage is probably not as strong as you think, you and your dh are statistically quite likely to split up and then i'm sure he'll do everything he can not to pay child maintenance and you don't have a career and now the govt only support two children with child tax credits in the future so you'll be screwed'

I mean WTF???!!! I would guess the OPs friend would have expected a discussion more along the lines of what you get on here often which is whether three is much more work for two, how do you split your time, what's a good age gap, how do you run the house with more children etc.

So yes, OP i think YWBU to answer in the way you did when a friend was considering whether her family is complete with two children or three.

ShadowFire · 13/07/2015 14:03

I think the OP's advice to her friend would have been better if she'd included scenarios like redundancy, death, or the DH becoming unable to work because of illness or disability. Rather than focusing on the divorce scenario.

I guess divorce may be the most likely scenario for a dip in household income, but the whole "don't have a third child in case your DH leaves you" argument isn't likely to be listened to if someone believes that they've got a solid relationship and a trustworthy husband. Whereas redundancy, death and illness can happen to even the best husband in the world.

FWIW, I think the OP has a point in that people (fathers as well as mothers) should consider how they'd cope if things started to go wrong, but it's a point that's applicable to people considering TTC regardless of whether the child's going to be their 1st, 3rd or whatever number.

slightlyeggstained · 13/07/2015 16:31

Agreed ShadowFire, the chance of redundancy or future illness would be a lot more likely to be listened to, and less likely to cause offence.

MissMuffetisin · 14/07/2015 22:24

I think the O p 's advice is two children too late . No one should ever have kids unless they are able to support them even if they , or their partner, become ill, disabled or redundant. Just leaves the royal family then .

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep · 14/07/2015 23:11

As an SAHM to two DC, I think the OP's absolutely correct; the budget has moved the goalposts.

I'd also add that IME the move from having 2 DC in before & after school club/CM, to 3 DC, is where you need to be a pretty high earner to cover the childcare. I'm just trying to think, but I'm pretty sure all the families I know with 3 or more DC have an SAHP....

mimishimmi · 15/07/2015 00:18

As she asked, I think YANBU but even women with careers are often spending all of their earnings on childcare and are still totally dependent on their DP's income. If something happened to their DP or the relationship, they could be equally screwed. There is a reason birthrates have plummeted throughout the western world...

LillianGish · 15/07/2015 02:09

Not sure of the relevance of the SAHM thing here. Anyone can fall on hard times - the most high-flying career woman might lose her job or be unable to work. Taking the argument to its logical conclusion noone should have a third child.

frankbough · 15/07/2015 06:53

This is why my wife and I have ditched certain friends, some people drag there own negative thoughts and feeling about relationships and marriage and this is reflected by piss poor advice and chitter chatter..

Keep your nose out and learn how to be positive.. And learn how to be a real friend to married couples..